Signal Placement on long routes between Towns! Need help with this!

Moreover, exactly how to discern a permissive signal from an absolute signal, when there is no description, and the absolute signal may be not operable as a true absolute signal, and may be just a permissive signal improperly scripted
 
Permissive signals have number plates, stop and proceed, Absolute signals do not have plates, stop and stay until signal changes or dispatcher give the train clearence to pass the signal. JR's signals, RRSingal's, and Justinroth's signals have this feature.

John
 
I use Seniorchief's semaphores (which are very high poly dropping framerates to single digits), Seniorchief's PLS, and GFishers PRR Dwarf's, as well as BNSF50's Invisible Signal, and Invisible Signal Thingy ... are these permissive or absolute signals ?
 
Permissive signals have number plates, stop and proceed, Absolute signals do not have plates, stop and stay until signal changes or dispatcher give the train clearence to pass the signal. JR's signals, RRSingal's, and Justinroth's signals have this feature.

John

The only thing I can add is that I place the miles notation on the permissive signals. It sure makes it easier for the signal maintenance guys to find the signals.

Dap
 
Hello David,

How so? Especially if you have many tracks going here and there ...

Curious?

Thanks
Ish

JR's signals that have plates, the user can name them via the properties menu. RRSingal's, and Justinroth's signals also can be named by the plate sub menu in their properties menu.

John
 
Hello David,

How so? Especially if you have many tracks going here and there ...

Curious?

Thanks
Ish

As JohnnyC1 says.

Use the ? on these particular signals and you can add labels which will appear in the route. If you don't do that then the default name of Signal xxxxx where xxxx equals the signal number.

With your multiple lines, you could arrange the route as divisions, though as a continuous route. This is what the prototype does and it does help when managing things such as signals and schedules. Using my big Ozark Valley and Western as an example, a route that's over 250 miles long. I have done that.

The route is "divided" up into divisions on paper so I can arrange AI schedules using the Schedule Library. There's the East Kentucky, Ozark Valley, St. Louis division, etc. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but there are lots of Type 05s which are those permissive signals. Where I have named them, I have used two initials followed by a signal number. The Mile Post on that division might be a better thing. So let's say there's a Type 05 signal at MP 9 on the East Kentucky Tilford branch, I would rename it to EKT 09E.

This means East Kentucky Tilford MP 09 East.

There of course would be a similar for one West and the rest of course would fill in from there.

I hope this makes sense.

John
 
JR's signals that have plates, the user can name them via the properties menu. RRSingal's, and Justinroth's signals also can be named by the plate sub menu in their properties menu.

John

Hi John,

Thanks for your feedback, sir!

As JohnnyC1 says.

Use the ? on these particular signals and you can add labels which will appear in the route. If you don't do that then the default name of Signal xxxxx where xxxx equals the signal number.

With your multiple lines, you could arrange the route as divisions, though as a continuous route. This is what the prototype does and it does help when managing things such as signals and schedules. Using my big Ozark Valley and Western as an example, a route that's over 250 miles long. I have done that.

The route is "divided" up into divisions on paper so I can arrange AI schedules using the Schedule Library. There's the East Kentucky, Ozark Valley, St. Louis division, etc. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but there are lots of Type 05s which are those permissive signals. Where I have named them, I have used two initials followed by a signal number. The Mile Post on that division might be a better thing. So let's say there's a Type 05 signal at MP 9 on the East Kentucky Tilford branch, I would rename it to EKT 09E.

This means East Kentucky Tilford MP 09 East.

There of course would be a similar for one West and the rest of course would fill in from there.

I hope this makes sense.

John

Hi John,

I'm not quite there yet --- :'(

Do you know of any example routes in which I can download and see this set up?

Or if you have time, take some screenshot of your route and post here as example!

Thanks for the feedback, tho, sir!!!

Ish
 
Here's a couple from my Gloucester route, though one might be difficult to see.

There are others around somewhere. These images show the Jointed Rail Type 05 Searchlight signals, albeit kind of tiny in the screenshots. It figures because I usually have shots with these thins all over the place.






Unfortunately, these are on double track, but their placement is the same as single-track. Being a trolley line, my signals are placed a bit closer together because there are more trolleys running closer together. In the first pic - the one with road crossing, you can see a Type 05 before the crossing and one a bit farther down to the left.

I'll look around for more I may have archived, or if I remember to catch some shots later while driving my Ozark Valley route, I'll do that and post them.

John
 
As far a signal placement is concerned, is there any requirement that the next signal needs to be visible when a signal is passed? So on long straights, they could be farther apart and on curves, they would be closer together.
 
Thank you, John, for taken your time to help me understand this!
No rush from my end, sir, so take your time with your screenshot today or tomorrow, etc ... it's almost 4pm so will soon shut down pc too cook dinner for the wife and the little one's! :wave:

Take Care
Ish
 
As far a signal placement is concerned, is there any requirement that the next signal needs to be visible when a signal is passed? So on long straights, they could be farther apart and on curves, they would be closer together.

Now to confuse you... :)

The spacing of signals takes multiple factors into play though so there's no hard-fast rule that says that signals should be spaced closer for curves and further apart on long stretches. There are basically two things that will determine your signal spacing, which you really need to keep watch on. The first is the speed of your trains. Trains that move quickly with little traffic will need fewer signals because they will move along quickly and there's nothing in the way to get them caught up. If you are going to run lots of traffic, then you need to place more signals because you want your drivers to always be prepared for the train ahead. On my trolley route, I have close placed signals because I have lots of trains running on that stretch of track. Think of the NYC subway system or Boston's MBTA green line trolleys as an example, which my route is more like.

For my other routes where there is frequent traffic, but not fast or complex like the trolley route, I space my signals based on the longest consist I run on that particular route. There are of course factors based on this too such as mountains, and steep grades, which require stopping distances when there is a signal on a grade for example. So to determine my longest consist, I so happened to find that 2 US Coal 3000T built-in consists, plus engines on the front, is the length of my longest train. Starting at one end of a track stretch, I put down the consist and then place my signals at the front of the train (engine end). I then slide the consist and continue placing signals until I reach the end of my line.

Also it isn't necessary to place the signals so they can be seen one after each other in close proximity. It so happened to work out that way on my route because there are a larger number of trains being a trolley system. Longer routes, as mentioned above will have them spaced further apart. My consist-measuring device really, really helps with this aspect.

Hope this isn't too confusing. :)
 
Slightly confused.

What does the length of a train have to do with the signal spacing? Sure it makes it easy to measure a consistent distance between signals, especially in curves but shouldn't the sight distance to the next signal be greater than the stopping distance of the heaviest train expected on the track be the determining factor? So even if the next signal is around the curve, by the time you see it, there should still be enough distance to stop.
 
Slightly confused.

What does the length of a train have to do with the signal spacing? Sure it makes it easy to measure a consistent distance between signals, especially in curves but shouldn't the sight distance to the next signal be greater than the stopping distance of the heaviest train expected on the track be the determining factor? So even if the next signal is around the curve, by the time you see it, there should still be enough distance to stop.

Yes that issue is another factor and one of the many factors that needs to be taken into consideration. Placing signals before curves I think is much better than placing them after the curve so that the driver can anticipate stopping.

Taking into consideration the maximum train length ensures that a complete train will be within the "signal blocks" so there is no overlaps once a train is out of one block and is in another once it has left a block.
 
Now to confuse you... :)

The spacing of signals takes multiple factors into play though so there's no hard-fast rule that says that signals should be spaced closer for curves and further apart on long stretches. There are basically two things that will determine your signal spacing, which you really need to keep watch on. The first is the speed of your trains. Trains that move quickly with little traffic will need fewer signals because they will move along quickly and there's nothing in the way to get them caught up. If you are going to run lots of traffic, then you need to place more signals because you want your drivers to always be prepared for the train ahead. On my trolley route, I have close placed signals because I have lots of trains running on that stretch of track. Think of the NYC subway system or Boston's MBTA green line trolleys as an example, which my route is more like.

For my other routes where there is frequent traffic, but not fast or complex like the trolley route, I space my signals based on the longest consist I run on that particular route. There are of course factors based on this too such as mountains, and steep grades, which require stopping distances when there is a signal on a grade for example. So to determine my longest consist, I so happened to find that 2 US Coal 3000T built-in consists, plus engines on the front, is the length of my longest train. Starting at one end of a track stretch, I put down the consist and then place my signals at the front of the train (engine end). I then slide the consist and continue placing signals until I reach the end of my line.

Also it isn't necessary to place the signals so they can be seen one after each other in close proximity. It so happened to work out that way on my route because there are a larger number of trains being a trolley system. Longer routes, as mentioned above will have them spaced further apart. My consist-measuring device really, really helps with this aspect.

Hope this isn't too confusing. :)

Hi John,

Martin asked the same question that I had in mind before reading his post and your replied of his post ... LOL

Too bad your route has payware items on it, assuming it's the same route you have mentioned to me on another thread!

I feel that if someone can demonstrate all this prototype signal on a test route and upload it will go further to understand how to, and where to place these signals, so a novice like myself don't over do it. Also, I think it would be a popular Signal Test Route as well!

My Desert Interactive Route is very massive with lots of curves, hills and mountains, as well as long straight tracks, etc ... Although, there's no timetable for my route, it will be nice to understand all this signal placement so to get it right the first time!

I know, it's weird, but this signal thing is my handicap, in all trainz things! LOL

Thanks for your feedback, John, sir!!!

Ish
 
PLACING SIGNAL IN YARDS

Hi All

At train yards, do 1 signal takes care of the entire yard, or do multiple signals do?

Ish
 
Hi All

At train yards, do 1 signal takes care of the entire yard, or do multiple signals do?

Ish

I put small dwarf signals such as RRS' US&S 2L dwarf signals so that they all face towards the yard throat. What I mean by this is if you go to the big spread out side of the yard, where the tracks are fanned out, the signals have their lights on that side so the backs of the signals are on the single-tracked side. I do the same with stub-ended yards and sidings as well.

What I find with this is the AI then see the bumper as the red signal rather than seeing the signal at the throat as red. This allows you to order the driver to couple to consists, otherwise, he'll complain about the track being occupied by another train.

Here's my absolutely best and stunning track signal schematics.



 
I put small dwarf signals such as RRS' US&S 2L dwarf signals so that they all face towards the yard throat. What I mean by this is if you go to the big spread out side of the yard, where the tracks are fanned out, the signals have their lights on that side so the backs of the signals are on the single-tracked side. I do the same with stub-ended yards and sidings as well.

What I find with this is the AI then see the bumper as the red signal rather than seeing the signal at the throat as red. This allows you to order the driver to couple to consists, otherwise, he'll complain about the track being occupied by another train.

Here's my absolutely best and stunning track signal schematics.




Hi John,

Perfect, sir ... With your blessings, I would like to copy and paste this here:

My route blog "Desert Interactive Railroads"

I am going to use this example, and even name a path after you on my vast route :wave:

Take care, sir

Ish
 
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