What would have happened if N3V did not use DRM at all ?

JCitron said:

Outside of that, the current form of DRM that you are so worried about is pretty mild. A login to a server once a month to check that you are the owner of the software isn't as painful as it could be or used to be,

Do you remember the paper disk things along with a manual?
Or how about dongles and authorization servers?

Click to expand...

These things were all pretty mild. Sure, dongles occasionally had their issues, but they still worked if the company went belly-up or decided they didn't want to support the product anymore.

Modern DRM represents a great extreme because customers are vulnerable to these things whereas we can keep using a product. As an example, I regularly play Hyperspeed, by Microprose, which requires that you match codes against the game manual. I still have the manual and the game still works as well as it did in 1991. This would be quite impossible if it phoned home for authorization, be it once a month, once a week, or once an installation.

This is but one of many examples I can give.

really....who cares about DRM

...those of us who don't want to lose thousands of hours worth of work - not to mention dollars - because a company went belly-up or decides to obsolete their products.

With that said, this has all been covered before. It really should just be made a sticky and be done with.

@RRSignal
Ill Match your Starship and Raise you a Tardis.....

First, I never said DRM wasn't about *more* then just Piracy. Further, I also mentioned that DRM is IMHO used by some companies as Profit Maximization..... I was replying to a certain individual along a specific thread of inquiry and keeping things as close to the realm of that thread as I could.....

That said, I agree with much of what you say, except that DRM's primary goal isn't about Piracy. I agree the first two would be Piracy and Profits, and that in some situations certain companies undoubtedly switch those two goals. However, I have yet to see any evidence of N3V doing so. Their Pricing model hasn't changed since the inclusion of DRM, and until it does, I see this as nothing more then an attempt at controlling piracy. N3V doesn't require a subscription, and I assure you if they did, I would probably refuse it, presumably right along with yourself and many others..... DRM rightly so was an effort to protect "Intellectual and Electronic Property" (Which is a whole nother can of beans), no matter where else its been taken since its inception. I've seen it done way worse, anyone remember Sony Music's fall from grace?

As far as the "DRM Road". You say they didn't need to go down it, but then recommend a different branch of the same road. Obviously they felt a need for the DRM Road that we're all now traveling on. As I stated before, as long as its manged to certain standards, I'll happily ignore it.

As for which Branch of that road they go down. I have had the question about "What other ways could they have done this", though I haven't made a point of pursuing it. At the end of the day, I find it academic as far as TANE is concerned, because there is no way its going to change at this point. That said, its definitely a discussion we should have at some point, IMHO. I can't believe N3V just blythly picked this particular course for the DRM without any thought or consideration for other alternatives, but it would be interesting to see what they would say about alternate routes.

As I said earlier, if Anti-Piracy was easy, there wouldn't be anymore Pirates....

-Falcus

Not one person has described what would happen if N3V did not use DRM, or discontinued using DRM.

All I hear is a bunch of long drawn out lengthly paragraph, upon lengthly paragraph, jabber from a bunch of DRM fanboys, telling how wrong I am for bringing the subject up.

What exactly would happen if N3V had not used DRM, and what would exactly happen if they stopped using DRM ?

Would they have been bankrupted ?

Most probably they would have been in the same shape that they are now, without DRM.

That's the problem, though. Without thinking ahead, and just accepting things at face value, by the time N3V (and this applies to any developer or publisher, for that matter) institutes their subscription model, forced obsolescence, etc. it'll be too late to do anything about it.

It's reasonable to expect that they will or are at least using DRM to keep their options open, since that's been the trend of the software industry in general.

cascaderailroad said:

Not one person has described what would happen if N3V did not use DRM, or discontinued using DRM.

All I hear is a bunch of long drawan out paragraph, upon paragraph, jabber from a bunch of DRM fanboys, telling how wrong I am for bringing the subject up.

What exactly would happen if N3V had not used DRM, and what would exactly happen if they stopped using DRM ?

Would they have been bankrupted ?

Most probably they would have been in the same shape that they are now, without DRM.

Click to expand...

Broad Generalizations gets you into more trouble...... Hey RRSignal, I think he just called you a DRM fan boy?

Falcus said:

....snip....
After that, what would happen without it? There would be alot more pirating of their software. Its true, there is no such thing as net security. You're never going to keep every single heavily vested, talented, interested party from cracking your codes or software... But by making it an as annoying process as possible, you ensure they have to be REALLY dedicated to their pursuit, and chances are, if you throw enough roadblocks in their way, you can find a way to track them and prosecute them later.....
...snip....
-Falcus

Click to expand...

Personally, I'd like to see N3V be able to make their next game/engine without the Kickstarter if possible. Would that be possible without DRM? IDK.... Maybe you could consult your crystal ball or Ouija Board Cascade, because I think thats about the only way anyone can really answer that.....

-Falcus

cascaderailroad said:

Not one person has described what would happen if N3V did not use DRM, or discontinued using DRM.

All I hear is a bunch of long drawan out paragraph, upon paragraph, jabber from a bunch of DRM fanboys, telling how wrong I am for bringing the subject up.

What exactly would happen if N3V had not used DRM, and what would exactly happen if they stopped using DRM ?

Would they have been bankrupted ?

Most probably they would have been in the same shape that they are now, without DRM.

Click to expand...

They were able to drop $1m on T:ANE development. We'll all draw our own conclusions and, hopefully, leave it at that.

The software has all ready been pirated ... once it's been pirated it is out there on the torrents ... and can't be stopped ... how did DRM stop this pirating ?

It did not stop it ...the game was pirated long before 5-15-15, and ever since then it has been released to the public by pirates.

Now tell me again ... how DRM stopped that ?

Seems like the lock has all ready been picked by a child with a bobby pin.

DRM does nothing to stop piracy !

So N3V is still in the same boat as if it would have been if it had not used DRM.

It was stated by N3V that more people pirated TS12 and it's DRM protection ... than those who bought the game !

cascaderailroad said:

The software has all ready been pirated ... once it's been pirated it is out there on the torrents ... and can't be stopped ... how did DRM stop this pirating ?

It did not stop it ...the game was pirated long before 5-15-15, and ever since then it has been released to the public by pirates.

DRM does nothing to stop piracy !

It was stated by N3V that more people pirated TS12 and it's DRM protection, than those who bought it !

Click to expand...

Ok, so you're telling us, that you know for a fact, that if you went to certain Sites, you could download and install full suite DLX or Higher editions of TANE?

Having had a look, all I see are stock copies, which do not include anything beyond the basic 4 Routes you get with the game install (The rest are downloaded later, after you enter your User ID & PW into TANE). The DRM isn't meant to stop TANE from being copied. Indeed, I can copy my copy of TANE all I want and put it on whatever computers I want. But without login details, or copies of the Downloaded data, I either have nothing beyond the first 4 basic routes, or the game shuts down as soon as the DRM kicks in..... I'll admit, I dont know all the details about what the DRM would specifically do to someone with an illegally obtained copy. Will it close the whole game down? Will it still allow access to the DLS with a borrowed Account name/PW? Will it close entirely down after 1 month? Will it only close DLC or expanded content down? Tony or someone else will have to answer that when they get back from their weekend or whenever they see this thread and care to. Regardless to say, there is DRM in TANE, and it will at some point come into effect. What happens after that, N3V will have to answer.

I think I'll let N3V decide if they're still in the Same Boat or not.... Its easy to make assumptions when you're not in their boat at all.....

As For TS12. Of course it was Pirated.... Ever version of it up to 49922 was DRM free. Why shouldn't it have been pirated ad nauseum. Thats like leaving a Paper Money Template laying around and being surprised when counter-fitting becomes rampant..... That is one of their primary stated reasons for initiating DRM in the first place.

-Falcus

Zeldaboy14 said:

cascadrailroad, it's getting a bit old with these threads of What if DRM about Trainz. If you REALLY need someone to ask, find NeontheGriffon. I'm sure he'll demonstrate it to you. :hehe:

Click to expand...

I've been summoned.

Any virtual transactions you've partaken in being content or software are most likely being licensed to you unless said otherwise.
e.g. Buying a C40-8 from Jointed Rail = Licensing (limited)
You don't really own software unless you have the raw uncompiled source right in front of you. That sometimes may even be touchy (hint, read the EULA in the zip, kiddies). The same may be said about 3D models. Or anything really.

I do and yet do not support DRM. I understand the reasoning behind piracy, rather being cheaper than the dollar store or just not having money and needing to get through college, but yet it needs to be in place to satisfy the governmental definition of intellectual property protection.

and music sites need to really stop selling 256kbps music files for $1.25, that's just a ripoff. Vinyl is expensive but that's worth the cash for uncompressed true music.

I got pain in my back, maybe N3V put it there. Also my electric bill was pretty high this month, maybe N3V owns them. I also heard that Lee Harvey Oswald whispered N3V as he died.....They didn't know what he was talking about back in 1962.

Likewise, DRMed products are even more widely pirated, such as the Other Sim. Oddly enough, I can only find one example of Run8, which is not DRMed, of being pirated, and that torrent is no longer active.

RRSignal said:

Likewise, DRMed products are even more widely pirated, such as the Other Sim. Oddly enough, I can only find one example of Run8, which is not DRMed, of being pirated, and that torrent is no longer active.

Click to expand...

Well, I'll agree with the other sim, but their DRM, which ironically enough as I understand it, falls more in line with the "Key-Code" model, has literally been cracked, of which last I knew you could just simply get Key-Gens for (No, I have not done this, just attempted to educate myself, as incomplete as that may have been). From what I've read Tony saying about how N3V's DRM works, it requires an active Log-in to their servers (Mothership Check in). If nothing else, this gives them IP address' to check against Usernames, which is usually a good place to be in for anti-piracy (This is how most MMO's start their Anti-Piracy campaigns).

As for Run8.... I'm honestly not expecting Run8 to be that popular with the gaming crowd (The folk most likely to pirate things). When it can easily take you 1-2 hours for the uninitiated to just get your train *ready* to move, I easily see most of the gaming crowd Alt Tab Deleting long before they get to that point..... FPS games are popular for a reason, instant gratification. Trains, at their core, have essentially none of that..... That might change as Run8 keeps expanding, but that will be awhile, at least they don't look quite so much like they're driving on the moon anymore.....

The Other Sim otoh keeps trying to cater to this crowd, hence its popularity, all other issues aside.... Whether their venture succeeds or not, /shrug, who knows?

-Falcus

RRSignal said:

These things were all pretty mild. Sure, dongles occasionally had their issues, but they still worked if the company went belly-up or decided they didn't want to support the product anymore.

Modern DRM represents a great extreme because customers are vulnerable to these things whereas we can keep using a product. As an example, I regularly play Hyperspeed, by Microprose, which requires that you match codes against the game manual. I still have the manual and the game still works as well as it did in 1991. This would be quite impossible if it phoned home for authorization, be it once a month, once a week, or once an installation.

This is but one of many examples I can give.

Click to expand...

I used to play that too and others with those disk things. That's what made me think of it.

Now with dongles sure they can continue to work as long as there are ports to support them. The older software runs on parallel ports. IEE1394 port to be exact. They don't exist anymore. There are USB dongles which are a modern replacement, but they too have newer issues, with one being static electricity, which affected both forms of dongles. For some programs, the dongles are pretty expensive replacements too. For the Harlequin RIP software, for example, the dongle costs $7,500 per dongle. This is in addition to the software its self!!

Speaking of dongles and phoning home, I've run into that with various packages. 3ds-Max used to have a dongle, floppy-disk, and a phone-home activation. World Builder 3.0 was similar, and some of the CAD/CAM software I used to support required a dongle plus authentication via a server plus a network to the software publisher. On package was pretty crappy looking, and the interface looked like something from 1982, but it was needed to design PLAs and LGA circuits.

Sure and I agree that DRM is no more effective than a lock and key on a door to those that really want to break into a house. What it does though is cut back on the casual sharing, which is more common. Sadly, we can blame all this on the move and music industry as they fought back against the peer-2-peer file sharing applications such as Napster and Bear-share. Later on software companies got the idea to protect their IP at the consumer level, and that started with Apple, Adobe, and Microsoft.

But as you and I noted here in our conversation, that DRM has been around since software was sold to the public. The version we have today is typical of how things are done with fast networks and the Cloud. A decade from now, who knows what will exist as far as technology goes, and the what ifs, maybes, and don't knows add up to nothing but pure speculation at this point.

And I will leave this at that.

John

gawpo50 said:

really....who cares about DRM

Click to expand...

I congratulate you on possibly one of the most stupid statements on this forum ever.

I apologise for being rude, harassing etc. but this statement displays a mind boggling disregard for fellow Trainz users' feelings and opinions stated at length on this forum.

Its all very well to say you don't like DRM but I haven't heard anyone mention an alternative method to attempt to combat piracy.

All piracy is doing is costing us the game. Less revenue to the company, means less money they can put into building the programme, less money available to build the programme means the game suffers so we suffer. So if any company (gaming company in this instance), values its product and producing the best it can to its customers, the question is, why shouldn't they take and use every available option in order to maximise their revenue.

Frankly, I don't care if it has DRM or not, it doesn't interfere with my gameplay or game performance, I don't notice it although it would be an issue if it inconvenienced me. Im not fore it and Im not against it (yet), although I can see to some that operate isolated from the net, it is an inconvenience.

Personally, I would hate the day Trainz or anything else I play became subscription based, that would really be my last straw.

So, lets look forward, what is the alternative to the current DRM method. - And saying "nothing, because whatever is used is going to be hacked anyway" is not an option. How can N3V maximise their income to return back into the game and minimise their loss?

cascaderailroad said:

But this is a discussion: What exactly would have happened if N3V did not use DRM at all ?

Click to expand...

You would have found a different subject to make a bunch of useless topics about .

You really like your horses extremely dead and overkilled by the looks of it .

iannz said:

Its all very well to say you don't like DRM but I haven't heard anyone mention an alternative method to attempt to combat piracy.

So, lets look forward, what is the alternative to the current DRM method. - And saying "nothing, because whatever is used is going to be hacked anyway" is not an option. How can N3V maximise their income to return back into the game and minimise their loss?

Click to expand...

Phil_C locked his assets by the actual config files, and that made his assets uneditable, why can't N3V do that very same simple thing ?

You can't minimize your loss, when the horse has all ready been stolen from right out of the barn, by picking the DRM lock.

It is said that DRM helps cut back on piracy ... Now how can you cut back on something that is all ready out there, and is widely available to the public ... Cutting back really doesn't make any sense, if it is out there. you see ?

It is said that DRM helps enforce against piracy ... Now how can that be, if no one is being prosecuted for piracy ... So that is not making any sense, either, as there is no actual enforcement made by DRM, nor N3V, against pirates.

All DRM does is "stick it to" the paying customers, as the pirates are actively out there, giving the game away, for free, right now.

DRM ? ... What good is DRM, if it is hackable ?

I'm a bit wary of this thread as it seems to be getting a bit close on the Code of Conduct side with some posts. However, DRM, if done correctly, can help reduce piracy by only allowing those who have valid copies to use the software.

Shane