amigacooke
Well-known member
I'd check post #102 before making rash statements.
Still, I guess this is another discussion where we're not going to agree.
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End of Support for Anything below TS12
- Thread starter torino72
- Start date
- Status
Still, I guess this is another discussion where we're not going to agree.
You've lost me, Bolshy Yorkshireman. Please explain to me; where N3V would have obtained the funds to develop all the Trainz versions we've had so far, had everyone stuck with Trainz 1.3, refused to buy newer versions and demanded that N3V continue supporting old versions?
The Kickstarter Money Tree?
You are correct, and that was poorly put by me. Ultimately, yes, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on what constitutes a "loyal customer".
COLD and Calculating... YES! A minnow trying to act like a MS whale... YES. But as their apologists have been saying, they're in it to make money. Have no problem with THAT. TAKE OFFENSE as a programmer at their methodology, and some that the community has let them get away with it since 2009. These non-errors I'm concerned about were likely mentioned, but they stonewalled, and it's cost each of us mucho grando TIME--and robbed us of the enjoyment when doing so of using the programs in the way and for the purpose for which we have it. IT'S UNETHICAL and UNFORGIVABLE.
2) All we could expect now is Alpha & Beta versions. Different pieces need other pieces before such can be integrated and so things come together faster as the components become ready. //F
Oh, we get it, but YOU and the rest of the SHEEP championing the arbitrary line in the sand seem not to care that many an asset does not need the higher trainz-build tech to be valid. You seem not to get the justifiable agner that the programmers don't handle known and predictable cases of data organization and rearrange on validation with some elementary exception handling--predictable at that!--so the content is processed with a flaw-by-fiat, instead of a proper teensy bit of code to reconcile the old with the new preferred (Note, preferred vice necessary word choice!) way of organizing the data. Let me ask you this:
If you could trade 4K of memory used on your HDD for every asset you've had to fix, or update unnecessarily, would you give up the HDD space, or the TIME? That's the trade-off, and in the event, wouldn't be that big a HDD cost since they compress on Saving into the CHUMP. // F
Obsolete vs obsolescent. It's only the latter if someone still finds it useful. Unless you SPIN it as being obsolete. //F
Right, because Trainz wouldn't have existed past 2004 without the founding of the DLS and it's predecessor's sharing assets in UTC. The DATA is the question, not the operation of an less capable version of Trainz. Every data base software vendor since the 50s maintained, indeed put their major programming efforts into maintaining backward compatibilty. Upstart microcomputer companies made their inroads in business by having a faster better translator so the companies stuck with expensive Main Frame computer leases could leave Univac and IBM, et. al. and do the same task. THE TASK is the point. There is to my mind an implicit promise when you buy a Trainz release that the DLS and access to it are part of the licensing. That includes adequate processing of older data to run on newer releases. That's what they are deliberately trying to break, and it needs push back or they will get away with it. // F
EXACTLY the point, and the reason some sporting "THIS IS OKAY" attitudes differ with those of us who feel it is not OK.
Have you lot considered the extra burden the newer asset graphical demands will add to a newbie content creator's LEARNING CURVE. Why do you all think a content creator should be a perpetual slave to the whims of the arbitrary and needless breaking of a standard that worked fine? Evolve new capacities, sure. Break the old--is what they've gotten away with in many DLS errors. The cost has been to you all. I avoided them for more than five years having seen them second hand as my son struggled with them back in 2007. Now I've studied them, and seen the subterfuge. You've been played, so talk about being loyal to Trainz, but don't be loyal to N3V for they haven't been loyal to you. Unless you count needless wasted time as a reasonable cost. I don't and won't. // F
Whoe gives a Flying Fart over the software industries 'License' charade, or cash out of pocket use of something I bought. If they want it back, let 'em come with a court order! // FI trust they are all still licensing you to use the software in its present environment
YEP, nor should any of us be. They've screwed us over with all these curable faults since 2009. How smart do you feel knowing that is so? Don't. It's rather dumb. // F
Ibid WGAF above.
YEP, and they do milk it. Hilliam's family and the board wouldn't be running it still if they weren't getting a reasonalbly good return on investment. SOME of which is at our TIME expense since they didn't maintain compatibility translation for predictable data dislocations. Why are you lot complacent for having to MANUALLY code bogey to bogies { ...} et al, not to mention patching texture paths... // F
No your arguement is invalid. Those people believed the DLS would always be there. Pragmatically they make money, so should maintain compatibility. The code was already in TRS2006--TCs... why did it become vaporware? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. This community out to be OUTRAGED that a few lines of code COST YOU a lot of time over the years. They can be mercenary by providing a product that people feel they must have because of features, but don't try to sell me a CON that the version creep is anything but contrived and totally unnecessary. ASK YOURSELF: Why do YOU put up with it? // F
Agree that some version creep is acceptable, but the arbitrary five years given their failure to address a TS12-SP2 for it's flaws grates quite a bit. At the least, the community needs to push back to enlarge that, and as I pointed out somewhere, NOTHING prevents them from having last years pre-upload checking routine applied this month when they can branch on the CC's assigned trainz-build level. NOTHING. So this is all managerial mismanagement skinning the sheep. Don't Baaaaaa! Complain! Stop uploading and steal the fuel. // F
Why not? We traded money, I expect to be treated as a customer and for you to act like you want my business going forward. If you want my good will, perform. If you want word of mouth from me, don't F*** me over. Simple. // F
Agreed on all points. For the record, I HAVE stated in the distant past that an automated repair process, be it in-game via pre-processing or via a scripted DLS Cleanup, could have prevented many of the problems we're seeing. I'm about 80% certain some kind of automated repair did occur at some point around the first round of DLS Cleanup (including Trainzbuilds being unnecessarily raised to 3.3, even though all the repairs that I ended up repairing worked fine when reverted back to 2.9). There have been a variety of proposals in the past including TARL and I think some other stuff.
Agreed, it's human nature for people (and companies, governments, etc.) to get away as much as their constituents will put up with, and creeping restrictions is usually far more palatable than dropping a bucket of whoop-{bleep}. Vigilance and push-back is the only option that *might* slow down or stop bad decisions. But, there are always blind followers, too, who are quick to rubberstamp any action, no matter how nonsensical or counterproductive. Such is human nature: It was this way long before N3V existed and it will be this way long after N3V is gone.
shaneturner12
Tutorial Creator
I can still understand why N3V are stopping support for TS2009/TS2010. They need money from new sources in order to survive, and supporting older versions is not likely to give them sufficient revenue.
Frank - In terms of the bug fixing, you had an opportunity (not sure if you took it or not as you haven't got a TANE badge next to your name) to pledge and be able to test T:ANE. That's the main way of getting bugs identified nowadays.
Shane
Frank - In terms of the bug fixing, you had an opportunity (not sure if you took it or not as you haven't got a TANE badge next to your name) to pledge and be able to test T:ANE. That's the main way of getting bugs identified nowadays.
Shane
This was the consensus we had when I used to support Apple machines and users up until 2009. We came to the conclusion that Apple doesn't put a lot of stock in the patches and goes for their latest kitten version, and at the time they were pushing out new versions one after the other. Sorry for being a non-Apple IT person, but having dealt with their machines for close to 20 years, I grew to hate them and the users I had to deal with. This left me with a rather poor taste of the systems that so many people love.
Anyway... Back to topic.
I agree with much has been said here. As I said before in another thread.. We've been had it seems!
cascaderailroad
New member
Even I, (the biggest tightwad, cheapskate of all time) has bought 04, 06, TC1&2, TS10, and TS12, as well as multiple FCT's, and DLC assets ... I like to think that I am a loyal customer
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I don't know if you have noticed but this thread addresses specifically the ability for users of older versions to upload and download new content from the DLS. Bring your wall-of-text rants somewhere else.
Instead of thinking how they're trying to make your life harder or something, have you ever considered alot of older content is absolute sh!t and chockfull of errors? If you bought a car in the 1950s with rattling body panels you might've been okay with it, because hey you had a car that's what's important right? If you bought a brand new car today you wouldn't tolerate any of that. Standards have gone up and so have expectations.
The learning curve will always be there. The only thing said creator is a "slave" to is proper content creation protocols. Old content was created to very low standards in the past - these are the kind that raise all kinds of errors and warnings when you try to use them in a newer version of Trainz. The ones that were done right, however, will import and install with no fuss. This is the work of proper content creators, the kind who "enslaved" themselves to proper standards even when it was not required back then.
If anyone still wants to play it fast and loose like it's still TRS2004, go right ahead, but keep it to yourself because I doubt anybody wants that crap on the DLS.
Actually, your FCT money doesn't come close to even turning a profit if you take into account hosting costs for bandwidth and storage. Do you seriously think the DLS is the only expense N3V has?
And ignoring everything that I just explained above, the decision to move forward and close old-version upload has nothing to do with errors and warnings or breaking compatibility.
To put it in a marketing perspective plain and simple: N3V wishes you would upgrade to the latest version and one way of doing that is to make all new content from September onwards to be TS12 and above. Where's the "breaking compatibility"? Have they deleted all older content from the DLS? Have they updated everything on the DLS to be TS12-only?
You moaners can remain in your technological backwater - that is your right - but if you think N3V, or any tech company for that matter, is going to stop moving forward because of a bunch of nostalgic old men complaining about software EOLs you need a reality check.
Well, looking at your timeline at least who all know who the biggest fool in the room is.
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stationmistress
By comparison JAFA
I object to being included in your diatribe. I AM NOT AN OLD MAN, look at the name!
I bought 2004 originally but soon bought 2009 because there was more to it. Even though I've updated to SP4, SP3 is the max I prefer. TS12 is only on my system to check that assets work there as well as in 2009.
As has been said, 2004 to 2009 assets work just as well in TS12 as long as they are correct to start with. Some of my assets have a little niggle that only turned up after buying TS12 and trying them after uploading to the DLS. Little things like X.TGA is a uniform colour and istrack or isroad is missing and will be set to default. So a line is missing by TS12 standards and a colour is uniform. Neither warnings don't seem to affect performance and never affected earlier versions.
For basic unscripted assets, it all boils down to the way the config is written.
Enough said, I'm back off to my 2.9 route building.
Bye.
amigacooke
Well-known member
The list gets longer.
I can only say I am glad I no longer try and make quote "crap", for Trainz on reading the comments.
At one time I did make barges, canals, and made them so they could be pulled by the horses in Trainz and on the DS.
Also complex docks similar to what I make now in the Blender Game Engine.
But they certainly don't look like quote 'crap'. to me and even the criss-cross trees look fairly realistic along the canal banks...in the Blender Game Engine nowadays...whether anything of mine still works in Trainz I have no idea and have no interest whether judged as quote "crap" or otherwise.B
http://www.barrygandsw.co.uk/ukcoast.html
At one time I did make barges, canals, and made them so they could be pulled by the horses in Trainz and on the DS.
Also complex docks similar to what I make now in the Blender Game Engine.
But they certainly don't look like quote 'crap'. to me and even the criss-cross trees look fairly realistic along the canal banks...in the Blender Game Engine nowadays...whether anything of mine still works in Trainz I have no idea and have no interest whether judged as quote "crap" or otherwise.B
http://www.barrygandsw.co.uk/ukcoast.html
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ryanstrains
Moderator
Guys, let's not turn this thread into a flame war, you are free to discuss things and make points but please do not do so in an abusive manner.
jacksonbarno
Alco Spoken Here
We don't even know how TANE will function. If they slowly push us out of the older versions, then they think that we will eventually have no choice but to upgrade. Hey, N3V, here's an idea: give us a REASON for us to WANT to upgrade, don't try to force it with this "End of Support" bs. If we see something that we like in a new version, that is reason enough to upgrade. With the recent track record of releases and nonsense from N3V, I am not sure that I will want to use TANE after it comes out. For all we know, it could be a giant train-wreck, filled with bugs, glitches, and the like that we experienced with TS12SP1. There is also apparently no guarantee that they would fix such bugs if the new sim had them, after all, they were reluctant to patch the NKP High Speed Freight set when inaccuracies were found with that, who is to say that they won't act the same way with their "new and improved" sim? N3V has had a recent track record of alienating its customers, and this proves my point.
All I can say is that TANE better be good, because I'm pretty happy with my TS12 SP0. Let me remind you that there are also plenty of other simulators out there that are pretty darn good as well. I know that N3V is a business, and they need to make money, but alienating your customers is not a good way to do it. There are plenty of ways to make money across ALL versions, from TS09 to TANE, and trying to force people to update limits your source of income.
Nicky, they can keep moving forward while still keeping support for old versions. There is little difference between TS2010 and TS12, and even less difference between TS2010 and TS09. They can still make money, and lots of it, they are just shortsighted. N3V likes to "step over a dollar to pick up a dime," and they are quickly going about burning bridges with their returning customers. Let me remind you that the competitors make more while still offering free upgrades. I know N3V is a smaller company, but that makes no difference business-wise, as the same principals apply.
All I can say is that TANE better be good, because I'm pretty happy with my TS12 SP0. Let me remind you that there are also plenty of other simulators out there that are pretty darn good as well. I know that N3V is a business, and they need to make money, but alienating your customers is not a good way to do it. There are plenty of ways to make money across ALL versions, from TS09 to TANE, and trying to force people to update limits your source of income.
Nicky, they can keep moving forward while still keeping support for old versions. There is little difference between TS2010 and TS12, and even less difference between TS2010 and TS09. They can still make money, and lots of it, they are just shortsighted. N3V likes to "step over a dollar to pick up a dime," and they are quickly going about burning bridges with their returning customers. Let me remind you that the competitors make more while still offering free upgrades. I know N3V is a smaller company, but that makes no difference business-wise, as the same principals apply.
First, an update on the Pathspec in texture.txt files I started researching in Page 2...
No one pointed out that I had malformed the pathspec, so I just finished testing the same pathspec with an error (mine) in every version since T'06. The irony, is TC3 took the pathspec and fixed my goof... sort of the forgiving thing good software does routinely dealing with older content, and poor software does not. (Just Ask Nick, he knows everything. And if he doesn't he blusters because you dare have another value system and your own opinion.)
Turns out every combination of DOS/WINDOWS '..\' referenced pathspec imaginable (well, so far as being under the the asset's root folder under ..\editing) works, including a grandparent reference like these:
... as it well should. Just for the hell of it, and the sake of completeness, I'll put up a photo of the combos tested in a while with a reedit just below this period.
Here we go! // F
Personally, I've suspicions the reason they chose the (rather dismal, as these things go) KickStarter path was to keep family/firm money out of the development, so if they experience a sales bump, they possibly could find a buyer and get out. Cheerful thought! // F
Elsewhere, I pointed out last week I spent three hours dusting off the 'C/C++' cobwebs and coded in about a screen-full of lines a good start as the heart of a pre-processor, which handled a number of issues BEFORE the lines being input were even put away--which is it's primary task, and that before any real testing was anywhere close to being ready for validation. I expect to continue that, in a back burner way, but I'll bet I'm done before TANE is released. If so, you'll be able to use it like a PEVtool inside the open using interface, and it will adjust the generational disconnects in the configs--just like I've been saying should be done. (What have you been doing for the community Nick? I mean besides being obnoxious and nit-picking others? The Trainz Wiki? The Wikibook? NO? Hmmmmm. I SEE! Wall paper that datum folks...) // F
Over my dead body Shane. Then I'd be anxious about my money like Nick!
If they can't fix their self-proclaimed best selling ever version, I'm not going to pony out money in advance of good reviews. I'm still not running MY ROUTEs in TS12 for starters, so I can wait. Beside's Moody still hasn't apologized for slandering me over the N3V Wiki, nor has he lifted the Ban there. This is what an intro should look like on the N3V Wiki, and I've no intentions of fighting the staff if they want to keep it crappy.
It's my time, freely donated for the good of all of us, and it was just getting to the point where I could cross-link and write some nav templates and such wiki enhancements and he went off on me. So, who started the ill will. Me? I didn't claim I had to re-edit over half of what HE wrote when the record was he'd only edited FOUR, count them 4 pages after me to make a minor correction, and one actual goof--because they didn't iterate the trainz-build in TS10, so you have TS09 and TS10 with that funny tech level overlap sharing two trainz-build values. Big mistake? The mistake was continuing for 2000+ edits after they wouldn't turn on parserfunctions and incorporate a common.css and common.js so people can search more effectively. The hell of it is, they can legally just copy the one's in Wikibooks or Wikipedia! // F
No one pointed out that I had malformed the pathspec, so I just finished testing the same pathspec with an error (mine) in every version since T'06. The irony, is TC3 took the pathspec and fixed my goof... sort of the forgiving thing good software does routinely dealing with older content, and poor software does not. (Just Ask Nick, he knows everything. And if he doesn't he blusters because you dare have another value system and your own opinion.)
Turns out every combination of DOS/WINDOWS '..\' referenced pathspec imaginable (well, so far as being under the the asset's root folder under ..\editing) works, including a grandparent reference like these:
Code:
[SIZE=4]Primary=..\..\parent's_Brother_folder\texturename.tga
[SIZE=4]Primary=..\Sister_folder\texturename.tga // this is one up one folder level, over to sister subfolder normal form... [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Primary=..\..\texturename.tga // this would be form with the tga in the asset_root folder from a sub-subfolder... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Primary=..\texturename.tga // this would be normal form... [/SIZE]accessing folder in parent level folderHere we go! // F
Well, their banking on the flash to bring in new customers, though how they hold them once they experience a plethora of errors given the already trashed internet reputation they got, is beyond me. [That's per my two twenties something gamer sons... N3V and Trainz has a horrible reputation on various gamer community forums.]
Personally, I've suspicions the reason they chose the (rather dismal, as these things go) KickStarter path was to keep family/firm money out of the development, so if they experience a sales bump, they possibly could find a buyer and get out. Cheerful thought! // F
I refer you to Jcitron's We've been had thread and Tony Hilliam's response to John therein. (Linked below) Supposedly, N3V has loads of cash and is rock solid with really good annual performance. That funds a development project sufficiently, using your in-house people wisely, and the servers, Nick. // F
I think I pointed that out above, the parameters the two camps apply are from opposite points of view. Watching some of you snipe at one another is just like being married and still speaking to the wife! // F
TARL was all hand fixes compiled and hosted where people can get at them. The successor--by the same VOLUNTEER and GIVING technical brains behind that is AssetX, and with IanWoodmores scripts, it supposedly fixes over 95%, or expects to (per Paul Cass, who was writing much of the user help for it in the Spring). Nick had nothing to do with it though.
Elsewhere, I pointed out last week I spent three hours dusting off the 'C/C++' cobwebs and coded in about a screen-full of lines a good start as the heart of a pre-processor, which handled a number of issues BEFORE the lines being input were even put away--which is it's primary task, and that before any real testing was anywhere close to being ready for validation. I expect to continue that, in a back burner way, but I'll bet I'm done before TANE is released. If so, you'll be able to use it like a PEVtool inside the open using interface, and it will adjust the generational disconnects in the configs--just like I've been saying should be done. (What have you been doing for the community Nick? I mean besides being obnoxious and nit-picking others? The Trainz Wiki? The Wikibook? NO? Hmmmmm. I SEE! Wall paper that datum folks...) // F
Not according to Hilliam's defense -- everything's pretty rosy according to him on April 14th. // F
Over my dead body Shane. Then I'd be anxious about my money like Nick!
If they can't fix their self-proclaimed best selling ever version, I'm not going to pony out money in advance of good reviews. I'm still not running MY ROUTEs in TS12 for starters, so I can wait. Beside's Moody still hasn't apologized for slandering me over the N3V Wiki, nor has he lifted the Ban there. This is what an intro should look like on the N3V Wiki, and I've no intentions of fighting the staff if they want to keep it crappy.
It's my time, freely donated for the good of all of us, and it was just getting to the point where I could cross-link and write some nav templates and such wiki enhancements and he went off on me. So, who started the ill will. Me? I didn't claim I had to re-edit over half of what HE wrote when the record was he'd only edited FOUR, count them 4 pages after me to make a minor correction, and one actual goof--because they didn't iterate the trainz-build in TS10, so you have TS09 and TS10 with that funny tech level overlap sharing two trainz-build values. Big mistake? The mistake was continuing for 2000+ edits after they wouldn't turn on parserfunctions and incorporate a common.css and common.js so people can search more effectively. The hell of it is, they can legally just copy the one's in Wikibooks or Wikipedia! // F
I don't, but I'm a bigger tightwad when I've been burned! // FEven I, (the biggest tightwad, cheapskate of all time) has bought 04, 06, TC1&2, TS10, and TS12, as well as multiple FCT's, and DLC assets ... I like to think that I am a loyal customer
Since you want to get personal here Nick, perhaps you should consider that those rants as you call them, are based on a solid year of looking at exactly the reason those errors occur, and trying to get something EFFECTIVE done to have them not occur... in all that old junk any newbie can still download. Think of their reaction when they grab a route and 800 assets later 8-10 have faults (that if pre-processed properly, they would never see!). Sorry if you don't see that as a worthy goal, but I figure that's the very key the Company needs to survive. The key to stopping the internet reputation slide, and not only attract, but hold onto thousands of new users. Stop the bleeding. That's a key to saving any trauma victim. The broken legs can wait. // Frank
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Don't let one idiot with a mouth bigger than his shoe size make you think your creative talents are unappreciated. I've been wallowing in older content and much of it is very good. I was thinking of noting how 3/4ths of his posts (I can recollect) pick on other people one way or another. Maybe he has a terminal ase of arse burns. Well, we can hope. // Frank
Oops! So sorry, but his rectitude and unwillingness to credit the other guys viewpoint has validity finally just got to me. //F
HEY DUDE! That's plagiarism, even if you did phrase me a bit different! (So sorry, I couldn't resist!) According to Nick, I've papered enough wall here. so just let me say I feel your pain and anger too. A lot of us do. // Frank
I feel that this will be a mistake for NV3 in the long run, Unless TANE turns out as great as they claim it will be. Anyone who plays games knows that no company has ever released a game on the first try and gotten it right. Some never get it right. There are many games that I own but never play the vanilla game version. I often play Mods for games as they are often ten times better than the original game. I feel that NV3 is putting the cart before the horse on this one. They should not cut off older versions before the new one is even out. As other people have mentioned NV3 Trainz versions seem to be getting worse with each release. I feel that Trainz 10 was the best, but thats just my opinion. I just hope that NV3 gets TANE right for their sake or I feel there customer base will fall through the floor.
Chadd04,
You have expressed the fears that many users have when a supplier announces a "cut-off date" for supporting an existing product. N3V have announced that the "cut-off" will only apply to new assets being uploaded to the DLS if that upload is for a build number earlier than build 3.5. All the earlier build assets on the DLS will still be there and will still be downloadable. There are obviously some content creators that will be affected because they create and upload assets that have build numbers below 3.5. I just checked the latest route that I have uploaded to the DLS and it is build 3.7. All but one of its dependent assets are below the 3.5 cut-off but ALL are either already on the DLS (and free of errors) or are built-in to TS12.
I suspect the reasoning that N3V are applying here is that if they continue to accept asset uploads for earlier versions of Trainz then they are morally (and perhaps legally???) obliged to continue technical support for those earlier versions of Trainz. For example, continuing help desk support for Trainz 2009 (is that still continuing??).
Arguments on this thread have generally centred (with a lot of side issues and "wallpapering" thrown in) around fixing the older assets so that they will work "error-free" on the latest Trainz version (TS12) without having to increment their build numbers to 3.5 and above. The whole issue of fixing faulty DLS assets has been an ongoing saga in other threads - and I agree, Auran/N3V could have handled it better but no-one is perfect.
I have taken the view that N3V is a commercial operation and cutting costs and maximising sales, not providing lifetime support for legacy products, should be their main priority - for that I have been labelled a "sheep" which I proudly take to be a complement considering the importance of sheep in my country's history (only the best Merino wool and lamb cutlets of course). N3V are doing what every other software company has to do to survive - keep updating and improving their products, often at the expense of dropping support for earlier releases. Yes, there are some users who believe that TS12 is not an improvement over 2010, or 2009, or even over 2006, but that is their opinion and I have a different opinion. Unfortunately, some people have taken this all too personally.
Peter Ware
You have expressed the fears that many users have when a supplier announces a "cut-off date" for supporting an existing product. N3V have announced that the "cut-off" will only apply to new assets being uploaded to the DLS if that upload is for a build number earlier than build 3.5. All the earlier build assets on the DLS will still be there and will still be downloadable. There are obviously some content creators that will be affected because they create and upload assets that have build numbers below 3.5. I just checked the latest route that I have uploaded to the DLS and it is build 3.7. All but one of its dependent assets are below the 3.5 cut-off but ALL are either already on the DLS (and free of errors) or are built-in to TS12.
I suspect the reasoning that N3V are applying here is that if they continue to accept asset uploads for earlier versions of Trainz then they are morally (and perhaps legally???) obliged to continue technical support for those earlier versions of Trainz. For example, continuing help desk support for Trainz 2009 (is that still continuing??).
Arguments on this thread have generally centred (with a lot of side issues and "wallpapering" thrown in) around fixing the older assets so that they will work "error-free" on the latest Trainz version (TS12) without having to increment their build numbers to 3.5 and above. The whole issue of fixing faulty DLS assets has been an ongoing saga in other threads - and I agree, Auran/N3V could have handled it better but no-one is perfect.
I have taken the view that N3V is a commercial operation and cutting costs and maximising sales, not providing lifetime support for legacy products, should be their main priority - for that I have been labelled a "sheep" which I proudly take to be a complement considering the importance of sheep in my country's history (only the best Merino wool and lamb cutlets of course
). N3V are doing what every other software company has to do to survive - keep updating and improving their products, often at the expense of dropping support for earlier releases. Yes, there are some users who believe that TS12 is not an improvement over 2010, or 2009, or even over 2006, but that is their opinion and I have a different opinion. Unfortunately, some people have taken this all too personally.Peter Ware
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ZecMurphy
Community Assistant
Hi All
A few things that should be noted here, as it seems they've been forgotten...
First up, TS2009 is now almost 6 years old (5 years and 8 months approx), TS2010 is approximately 4 years 8 months old. Considering we originally announced that the life cycle of Trainz would be 4 years (this is even outlined in the life cycle page on the wiki), we've actually extended this further for these versions. TC3 and TC1/2 were the only ones that were 4 years; from memory. TRS2006 was given approx 5 years, TRS2004 was given about approx 7 years, UTC approx 8 years, Trainz 1.3 approx 9 years.
Just to outline the 'standard' steps we take during the end of support for Trainz.
First is that we end technical support for them. It should be noted that, for a short period after the end of support, we often provide suggestions for the common/easier to fix issues after informing customers that we do not support the edition(s) that they are using. This will happen on or close to the 1st of September (any existing tickets will still be handled as best as we can).
The second step is to remove free access to the Download Station for unsupported versions. You can still access the DLS if you either have a FCT or a supported version registered in your account, however you may need to use the FTP links to access the download station in future. Method of access may change in future as well.
The third step, which may or may not occur at the same time as (or before) the second step, is to stop uploads for unsupported versions. This, in part, is so that we can continue to improve the DLS error checking without having to worry about testing it with unsupported build numbers (the more we have to support, the more work we have to perform to make sure it all works correctly, and the more likely it is to have issues). It also means that we don't receive complaints about new content being released that unsupported versions need to pay for. And yes, it does mean that there is more content built to the standards of the newer versions (as in, config.txt standards).
It should be noted that TRS2006 and older, even with a FCT, cannot actually download via Content Manager (well, some have succeeded; but there's no easy/stable fix), since we made improvements to the DLS servers a few years ago. To fix this, we would have needed to release an update for a version of Trainz we no longer support, or if we did support it, a version that was around 6-7 years old. If we do make changes to the DLS in future, the same may well apply to TS2009/TS2010 as well. And eventually TS12, and so on.
The point is, we can't support these editions indefinitely. We also can't support uploading content for these versions indefinitely. We have set a date, not all will agree with it, and not all will disagree. We do feel we've given each version a good run of support on the DLS.
These versions will not just stop working come end of support. They will continue working till either they do not run on newer hardware, or they do not run on newer operating systems. However, distributing content will require the use of 3rd party sites; or having a newer version of Trainz. We simply cannot indefinitely provide the ability for these versions to upload to the DLS.
Keep in mind that the end of support date was set some time ago, it is not a sudden decision on our part.
Regards
A few things that should be noted here, as it seems they've been forgotten...
First up, TS2009 is now almost 6 years old (5 years and 8 months approx), TS2010 is approximately 4 years 8 months old. Considering we originally announced that the life cycle of Trainz would be 4 years (this is even outlined in the life cycle page on the wiki), we've actually extended this further for these versions. TC3 and TC1/2 were the only ones that were 4 years; from memory. TRS2006 was given approx 5 years, TRS2004 was given about approx 7 years, UTC approx 8 years, Trainz 1.3 approx 9 years.
Just to outline the 'standard' steps we take during the end of support for Trainz.
First is that we end technical support for them. It should be noted that, for a short period after the end of support, we often provide suggestions for the common/easier to fix issues after informing customers that we do not support the edition(s) that they are using. This will happen on or close to the 1st of September (any existing tickets will still be handled as best as we can).
The second step is to remove free access to the Download Station for unsupported versions. You can still access the DLS if you either have a FCT or a supported version registered in your account, however you may need to use the FTP links to access the download station in future. Method of access may change in future as well.
The third step, which may or may not occur at the same time as (or before) the second step, is to stop uploads for unsupported versions. This, in part, is so that we can continue to improve the DLS error checking without having to worry about testing it with unsupported build numbers (the more we have to support, the more work we have to perform to make sure it all works correctly, and the more likely it is to have issues). It also means that we don't receive complaints about new content being released that unsupported versions need to pay for. And yes, it does mean that there is more content built to the standards of the newer versions (as in, config.txt standards).
It should be noted that TRS2006 and older, even with a FCT, cannot actually download via Content Manager (well, some have succeeded; but there's no easy/stable fix), since we made improvements to the DLS servers a few years ago. To fix this, we would have needed to release an update for a version of Trainz we no longer support, or if we did support it, a version that was around 6-7 years old. If we do make changes to the DLS in future, the same may well apply to TS2009/TS2010 as well. And eventually TS12, and so on.
The point is, we can't support these editions indefinitely. We also can't support uploading content for these versions indefinitely. We have set a date, not all will agree with it, and not all will disagree. We do feel we've given each version a good run of support on the DLS.
These versions will not just stop working come end of support. They will continue working till either they do not run on newer hardware, or they do not run on newer operating systems. However, distributing content will require the use of 3rd party sites; or having a newer version of Trainz. We simply cannot indefinitely provide the ability for these versions to upload to the DLS.
Keep in mind that the end of support date was set some time ago, it is not a sudden decision on our part.
Regards
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