Real or Fictional in Trainz

I'm wording why everyone makes a big deal over Fictional models in trainz? Way I see it if your not enjoying trainz then why bother playing shod it matter rader its real or Fictional ?

There been alot lot of "how shod i put it" dislike over Fictional stuff for trainz "excluding copyrighted stuff".

From what I've noticed, most issues involving fictional models are relating to copyright issues.

Shane

Shane, I think there's another point to this. If it's fictional stuff that the Trainz people stay away from due to copyright, then would using the BNSF, and other such copyrighted logo's also be part of that? I mean, do the people who make the payware have the rights to sell a Trainz models that used such copyrighted logo(s)?

To a certain extent, yes. Different companies see things differently though - some companies will allow usage of their logos subject to credit being given, and some will require a payment/royalties in order to use copyrighted content. Some will refuse point blank.

In terms of payware, that is a different ball game, as any copyrighted content used does require permission from the copyright holder(s). It's the same for freeware, but some companies are more lenient if the content is not being made for profit.

Note that I am not a lawyer, so I cannot give you specific advice. What I do advise though is that if content being created includes copyrighted content, it is imperative to get permission for the use of said content. In some countries there are fair use clauses though.

Shane

Zeldaboy14 said:

Shane, I think there's another point to this. If it's fictional stuff that the Trainz people stay away from due to copyright, then would using the BNSF, and other such copyrighted logo's also be part of that? I mean, do the people who make the payware have the rights to sell a Trainz models that used such copyrighted logo(s)?

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To add to what I feel Here my question everyone using logos are we in volition of the copyright for logo's we used Let say we used a CN logo on a model don't we have to get permission form CN to use CN's Logo ? I know many use them with permission but that would mean 10.000 bans for copyright
volition.

Some Fictional model are are own ideas and not copyrighted so why dislike the good ones who try to follow the rules?

It's what people are meant to do (unless the company has expressly given permission), although some don't actually do so. Whilst the chance of legal action is small, there is still a chance.

However, copyright law is very complex, so it's advisable to speak to a lawyer/solicitor who is familiar with copyright law.

I don't want to affect anyone who is creating content, but it is something that people need to be mindful of, even in the world of Trainz.

Shane

Thats what I thot its the I know on MSTS they would lose it with you for using a logo with out permission lucky for me I got
permission form both VIA & CNR even so I'm stull uneasey about all of it.

It's one of those things to be mindful of when creating content that uses any form of copyrighted content. It's good to see that you have permission from 2 companies though, although you may be asked to produce evidence if they query it in future.

Shane

EDIT: This post by WindWalkr may also help regarding using/modifying other users content: http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?87125-DLS-uploads-and-copyright

also in the real railroading on a HO model its no different but you are allowed to use them I'm going look into this a bit deeper. I like making Fictional models because I own the logos.

This is a very interesting topic

Probably worth doing if you can locate a lawyer who deals with copyright law, as it will help other users as well. Be aware though that laws differ from country to country. Copyright related topics are always interesting as different people have different perceptions.

Shane

I agree with you there With VIA I just asked there admins and they wore all for it I'm going talk to the club they may have answers. I know most don't mind as long as you ask and are not selling it.

That's true, although there are some who are strict and require royalties even for free content. It's always best to ask first though.

Shane

Union Pacific did not want their logo being used, and tried to get all UP model trains pulled from hobby shop shelves ... lol :hehe:

Zeldaboy14 said:

I mean, do the people who make the payware have the rights to sell a Trainz models that used such copyrighted logo(s)?

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shaneturner12 said:

In terms of payware, that is a different ball game, as any copyrighted content used does require permission from the copyright holder(s). It's the same for freeware, but some companies are more lenient if the content is not being made for profit.

Click to expand...

Logos always belong to their respective holders. A place like JR has to maintain a relationship with as well as acquire permission to use such logos on any content we sell. Some companies are less strict about it than others. For instance, we were required to submit proof images to NS and get approval in order to create their heritage fleet or some companies require a full signed license to display and sell their logos.

CSX is notorious for this. If you ever look at some models, actual models that is, they have a note for any CSX or CSX predecessor fallen flag designating it a CSX licensed product or something like that. TS2014 finally got a license a few months ago to put CSX equipment in official releases long after every other North American fallen flag. They've even asked for royalties and licensing fees for freeware. There's something to be said for protecting your brand, but they take it too far.

Back to the original topic though, my biggest complaint with the fictional stuff is that it seeps, dare I say invades, into completely unrelated threads. It's annoying to have Thomas shots crop up in between complex prototypical scenes or constantly comparing every UK steam engine ever to the Thomas version. Or someone asks about a station or shed and someone responds with an object lifted from a fictional universe with nothing in common with reality. Also, these things are associated with young children, that is less than 8 or 9ish and that's really pushing it, well below the minimum age to join these forums. I've seen some people using Thomas Trainz stuff for their kids and grandkids, but these aren't the types usually posting it in every thread. Finally, a lot of the fictional stuff is obviously dated or of low quality given the niche market it fills so it's not even nice to look at for people who don't enjoy it. This isn't even talking about putting stuff that is entirely non-train related, I'm looking at you Bronies, into unnecessary situations.

Err, on talk of bronies, ​what about Code Lyoko scenery?

I have seen what some of you guys are talkig about:

The product page for the Bachmann Spectrum SAL USRA Light 2-10-2 says that they're using the name with permission of CSX, and the same goes for anyting UP (used with permission of Union Pacific)

And what is this about Union Pacfic trying to remove all model trains with their logo from hobby shops? I never heard about that. How long ago was that? And why get rid of free advertisement?

The UP thing was a while back, maybe mid-2000s, I don't think they wanted to remove all the models, but get a royalty check cut from anything that looked armour yellow and had a shield on it. They ended up backing down due to the backlash from modelers and model makers alike. Though when you think about it don't John Deere and Caterpillar take a cut of toy tractors and construction equipment?

As far as creating Fictional Train companies with fictional logos, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I've made a few fictional locomotives and fictional logos on rolling stock and locomotives too.

Yes, this is a simulation game and making fictional stuff is part of the fun.

Fictional routes also create a minefield. For example, Kalmbach publish plans every month in Model Railroader and have various archive plan books for sale. The intention is that people use those as ideas for a "proper" model railway but I believe they have adopted a somewhat protective attitude when it comes to a "virtual" model representation. A couple of years ago I had a long phone conversation with the guy who does the County Gate series of model railways. He was not opposed to someone doing a train sim version, but with the caveat that it could not deviate from his vision and had to include buildings and the correct locos/rolling stock as included on the layouts. So needless to say the idea went nowhere and you got Dalmunzie instead.

Closer to (UK) home, I believe Virgin Trains have strict controls over use of their branding, which is why the otherwise excellent Pendolino trainset in RW came out with an odd collection of semi fictional liveries.