lord9 - again

kenneth18278

New member
About another 100 illegal assets uploaded to the DLS today. Some originally by Neoklai, I didn't bother checking all of them.

Isn't it time this abuse was stopped once and for all?
 
I agree, Ken. I noticed this with Pofig trees and posted a "call us here" on the general forum, but didn't get a response from him. Sadly, nothing will be done unless the original authors complain. In some ways I see the need for this, otherwise people will be reporting content because they're p-offed at someone, and this isn't the best solution either. I suggest not downloading any of his content because we don't want to pollute our installs with not only duplicates, but stolen content as well.

John
 
I can see things going pair shaped if this does not get nipped in the bud, there will be people with routes that will have worked a long time on them just to have half of there hard work ripped out of there routes when something finally gets done about it, It's always the innocent that suffer the most.
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I can see things going pair shaped if this does not get nipped in the bud, there will be people with routes that will have worked a long time on them just to have half of there hard work ripped out of there routes when something finally gets done about it, It's always the innocent that suffer the most.
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I agree with this too. Sadly, we have a bunch of rip-off artists who have figured a way to get around the system that has worked so well for the rest of us. I wish there was something more we can do as a community to prevent this type of thing from happening.

John
 
All you can do is report it. Just don't make the pitchfork witch hunt that was done to Bugor. Alert the community and the original creator and only after verifying.*
 
Even if N3V need to receive the complaint from the original author, although I still think they are being a bit obtuse in this respect, once they have confirmed an individual has breached copyright rules the sanctions should be swift and severe. That is, no less than complete ban from uploading/downloading to/from the DLS (refund their FCT pro-rata if need be). No second chance, no appeal - block their serial number and they're outta here. Investigate any other content the cloner may have put on the DLS and alert the potential victim of the piracy.

As touched on in the Pofig thread, I certainly get the impression this matter is not taken that seriously by N3V. Despite the chiding in that thread that I'm a route builder not a content creator, it still entitles me to a view on the matter - 1. Because I don't want to inadvertently download a cloned item and find later on a route is missing a vital dependency and, 2. Content creators will eventually get pee'd off at the constant plagiarism of the work and N3V's ineffectual policy on the matter, eventually no longer bothering to create the assets us route builders rely on.
 
About another 100 illegal assets uploaded to the DLS today. Some originally by Neoklai, I didn't bother checking all of them.

Isn't it time this abuse was stopped once and for all?

To begin, I want to mention that I don't break Trainz copyright rules and license conditions myself, no matter how daft I think they are at times (see below). I prefer to be a law-abiding citizen in the Trainz (and all other) domains. But.....

Whenever one of these freeware copyright threads comes up, I always find myself unable to grasp what the problem is. I know that the apparent problem is some sort of breaking of a copyright "law" or condition set in the license. What I can never understand is the underlying hurt that is said to be caused.

When an author makes freeware it is, presumably, meant to be free to use. Some authors put in a condition about not using it in payware, which is a futile condition since everyone who does use it will do so in Trainz - which is payware. But this to the side.

Then there is the meaning of "free". Call me a pedant but I always thought that this meant "for the recipient to use as he pleases". So, putting in conditions which restrict it's free-ness by demanding no copies or redistribution seems illogical. Perhaps it should be called "restricted-ware"?

Even if it was, how can it ever end up being anything but free? The author makes no charge to the users who download it from a non-DLS website. How does the author lose out if someone copies it to another place where it can be freely downloaded?

Perhaps it's something to do with getting acknowledgement of authorship? If it's just that, why does anyone care about the Lord9 syndrome, since he's altering nothing in the config file; and perhaps only shows up as author=Lord9 because that's the only way he can download it to the DLS?

What unfair advantage do you think Lord9 is gaining?
What advantage is the author losing?

In short, when the copyright bellowers get going, I never find the answer to this simple question: where is the harm - to the author, user or copier - if there is no money involved?

In fact, one could argue that Lord9 and his ilk are actually improving the situation, since the user does not need to do The Great Kuid Hunt, the author gets an even wider use of his construct (which presumably was part of his intent in making it freeware) and the Trainz product is easier & better to use....?

My amateur psychologist self suspects that what's really going on is that the copyright meme has become a business-engendered thought-weed in the minds of those who really prefer the notion of freeware with it's communitarian outlook.

Lataxe, who is re-using loads of words invented by someone else, in this post.
 
And with post's like your's it will only get worse theft is theft.

What advantage is the author losing?
Ownership for starter's as the hard work that author has done to get that asset in game is all for naught as his name is no longer associated with it, But all this is a waste of time and energy as N3V also take your view which is a shame as one day there'll be nothing worth cloning on your DLS as creator's wont bother uploading to the DLS they may as well open up their window and throw the content to the 4 winds and see where it blow's.
What unfair advantage do you think Lord9 is gaining?
Isn't this kind of self explanatory as he doesn't have to make anything at all all he has to do is clone sum-one else's work and it's all his and yours once you choose to download it.
 
Even if N3V need to receive the complaint from the original author, although I still think they are being a bit obtuse in this respect, once they have confirmed an individual has breached copyright rules the sanctions should be swift and severe. That is, no less than complete ban from uploading/downloading to/from the DLS (refund their FCT pro-rata if need be). No second chance, no appeal - block their serial number and they're outta here. Investigate any other content the cloner may have put on the DLS and alert the potential victim of the piracy.

This. Please.
 
Re the comments from Lataxe, as a "freeware" route author, my view is firmly freeware does not mean "free for all". It can take weeks if not months to build a route (or a really good asset) so why should someone else make a few changes to it without permission and pass it off as their own? Just because something is cost-free does not remove the provisions of intellectual property or copyright law. It is still my work (kindly supported by the efforts of other asset providers), not someone else's. Of course it goes without saying as has indeed happened if someone approaches me with a legitimate request to re-build one of my routes, as happened with one of my Scottish projects and there have been similar instances in the asset world, e.g. SAP rebuilding some tree assets to 2012 standards. However there is a world of difference between improving someone's work by mutual consent and stealing copyright.

It is about time it was taken as seriously in the train sim community as payware theft (and I mean the wider genre, not just Trainz) as it has the potential to kill creativity and drive away the people making stuff.
 
Re the comments from Lataxe, as a "freeware" route author, my view is firmly freeware does not mean "free for all". ..... Just because something is cost-free does not remove the provisions of intellectual property or copyright law. It is still my work (kindly supported by the efforts of other asset providers), not someone else's. .....there is a world of difference between improving someone's work by mutual consent and stealing copyright.

Vern,
Your answer to my question asking what a freeware author loses if his item is copied seems to be that the author loses the association of his name with the asset in question - the fame - is this right?

If so, then as long as the asset retains a license or config file entry that specifies the original author, you will not have lost this association, or fame.

Your objection if the association of original author to the asset is broken is that "creators won't bother uploading to the DLS". I'm sure you're right - that some authors may create freeware assets to gain fame (if not fortune) and no other reason; but I suspect that many may create for the love of doing so and to provide useful materiel to others, such as route builders. These lads with wider creation-motives may not care if "their" asset becomes the property of all. In fact, that may be their heart's desire.

So, I am arguing that the "hard work the author has done" could be regarded by that author as sufficient reward of itself. Not only may some authors not need fortune, they don't care about the fame either.

For example, personally I make furniture and give it away. I don't sign it and once it's out of my shed and in the recipient's hands, it becomes theirs. Why would I care what they do with it if it's no longer mine? In fact, I don't care even if they want to claim they made it, since I already have the "real" reward of actually having done so.

Why do you feel the need for fame? (Serious question, since I don't understand this need from my own perspective).

As to Lord9 clones making it "all his and yours once you choose to download it" - well, isn't it then everyone's, including the author's - which I though was the whole point of freeware for Trainz.....? And, after all, everyone can see that it is the original author, not Lord9, that made the stuff he has cloned on to the DLS.

*********

But I recognise and respect your desire for acknowledged fame as an author even though you are in turn (as you admit) "kindly supported by the efforts of other asset providers". However, I am asking (nicely) if you would perhaps think about the apparent contradiction between sharing and continuing to own.

Lataxe, often puzzled by human motives apparently absent in himself.
 
Think some need to actually read what Freeware means. From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware

Software classified as freeware is licensed at no cost and is either fully functional for an unlimited time; or has only basic functions enabled with a fully functional version available commercially or as shareware.[SUP][9][/SUP] In contrast to free software, the author usually restricts one or more rights of the user, including the rights to use, copy, distribute, modify and make derivative works of the software or extract the source code.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][10][/SUP][SUP][11][/SUP] The software license may impose various additional restrictions on the type of use, e.g. only for personal use, private use, individual use, non-profit use, non-commercial use, academic use, educational use, use in charity or humanitarian organizations, non-military use, use by public authorities or various other combinations of these type of restrictions.[SUP][12][/SUP] For instance, the license may be "free for private, non-commercial use". The software license may also impose various other restrictions, such as restricted use over a network, restricted use on a server, restricted use in a combination with some types of other software or with some hardware devices, prohibited distribution over the Internet other than linking to author's website, restricted distribution without author's consent, restricted number of copies, etc.[SUP][10][/SUP][SUP][11][/SUP]

It does not give you anything other than the right to use it yourself and is subject to any limitations placed on it's use by the creator.
 
For example, personally I make furniture and give it away. I don't sign it and once it's out of my shed and in the recipient's hands, it becomes theirs.
That is different.

We, the content creators, make stuff. You are allowed to freely use it. You are not allowed to give it away as your own, as it is not yours.

A furniture example closer to freeware would be this:
You make furniture. You put it in front of your house with a sign next to it "made by me, feel free to use it". People can sit on it, sleep on it, take shelter under it, make pictures of it, etc. The furniture is still yours, but people are free to use it. However: People are not allowed to move the furniture ("distribute it") and mark it as their own, since it is not.

This situation on the DLS currently is that lord9 took your furniture, spray-painted his name over yours, and is distributing it against your wishes. Your name is still on it, but hard to see (since it has paint all covered over the obviously visible location) and moves it to a different location than you allowed.
 
What he is doing is blatant plagiarism. He is taking other people's works and putting his name on them without giving credit to the original creator. If he did this at university, at his workplace on a research project, or in other professional settings, he'd be booted, fined, and probably find himself flipping burgers at the local burger joint instead of enjoying a fruitful career.

I agree with Vern. He, among the others that have done this, should be tarred, feathered, and sent away without recourse. Like Vern I am a route builder. I rarely publish my work, but I am also involved in some outside projects which require content. I don't want to inadvertently put some of the plagiarized content on a route that will be given to someone else. And, this is wishful thinking here, should the stuff be pulled from the DLS, I don't want a route, which I've given someone else, to then be missing content that can't be found on the DLS or elsewhere, because as we know there is then that awfully painful missing dependency hunt.

For N3V I suggest they revisit their policy. Instead of inaction because the original creator hasn't contacted them regarding the content, perhaps remove the content if more than one community member has reported it. One person saying something could be construed as a hissy fit, but if it is a multitude of reports, then something should be done. Simple.

John
 
That's what they normally do, but the threshold is pretty high. Two or three for example is not sufficient, as it could be seen as one person leading another.

I believe the reason N3V require the original creator to contact them may be law related.

Shane
 
There is another reason that some authors do not want there creations on the DLS, and that is to do with terms and conditions of the DLS.
If it's on the DLS then N3V can do what they want with it without the owners permission... and that does not sit well with a lot of creators.
How would you like to work all day for no money. and watch the site foreman rake in a fortune for it without you seeing a single penny.
 
May I just suggest everyone who pops into this thread, for the good of the DLS and community as a whole, please report this thread and/or the user Lord9. Whatever stupid "threshold" N3V has in place, we'll hit it before too much damage is done.
 
When an author makes freeware it is, presumably, meant to be free to use.

Freeware means it doesn't cost money, not free of rights. If the creator retains no rights, then it is in the Public Domain.

Regardless if you paid for it or not, you still have to abide by the license you agree to upon purchasing the item.

peter
 
Most countries follow International Copyright Law but there are differences

Link to Australian Copyright Council information sheets about copyright:

http://www.copyright.org.au/find-an-answer/

Some of the problems in interpreting copyright law from a US perspective:

http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise30.html

And then there is Creative Commons as often used by the Russians:

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Creative Commons Public Domain


While I was browsing the Russian TrainzUP website I saw mention of the Creative Commons License.

Materials are available under a license Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported In the future, your modification to be redistributed under the same license as a freeware product for non-commercial use, not carry the exclusive and limitations. Otherwise you can not use this copyrighted material. Waiver of any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder. Downloading files you agree to the terms of this license

Источник: http://trainzup.com/?page_id=688
© Trainz UP


Here is info from http://creativecommons.org/about/cc0. There is a Russian version of this.

If this is in wide use within the Russian Trainz community it would put a different slant on any cloned Russian assets.

Also at:

http://www.trainzruss.ru/

http://429786.ucoz.ru/


And here is one attempt by the Russian Community to control the situation:

This link is advice for Russian Trainzers concerning illegal kuids
http://murmansk-trainz.ru/index/nelegalnye_kuidy/0-8


As Russian Federation has adopted international copyright law, plagiarism of non-Russian Trainz assets would still attract moderator action and infractions in accordance with N3V policy.



Currently lord9 has 289 assets on the DLS under his kuid group 334133

There are 102 Asset Dependencies

Not faulty: ???? ??4?
Not faulty: ?????
?? ??4?(v2)
Faulty: ?????? ??2? ????? ???-? v.2
Faulty: ?????? ??4?
Faulty: ??????? ?????
Not faulty: ??????? ????????-???????? ????
Not faulty: ??????? ??4?+
Not faulty: ????????? ??????
Not faulty: ???-TM ?????????
Not faulty: ???-TM ???????????
Not faulty: ???-TM ?????????1
Not faulty: ??4? ?????+
Unknown Location: <kuid2:703319:1002333:1>
Unknown Location: <kuid2:703319:1467:1>
Unknown Location: <kuid2:703319:14672:1>
Unknown Location: <kuid2:703319:1501:1>
Unknown Location: <kuid2:703319:213:33>
Unknown Location: <kuid2:703319:214:43>
Unknown Location: <kuid2:703319:51010:1>
Not faulty: Bogey kupe #3
Not faulty: Bogey kupe #4
Not faulty: Bogey kupe #5
Not faulty: Bogey kupe #6
Not faulty: Bogey pass plackart ser
Not faulty: bogey_chs2ta
Not faulty: bogey_chs2tb
Not faulty: Brake Passenger cars (without EPPs)
Not faulty: Camera 0075
Not faulty: Camera_0075
Not faulty: CHS2t EngineSound
Not faulty: chs2t_fan
Not faulty: chs2t_pant
Faulty dependencies: CHS4 KVR llc_White_bufer
Not faulty: corona red
Not faulty: DSP Radio sounds
Not faulty: dummy Engine Sound
Not faulty: Ed_pricep_enginesound
Not faulty: ed4m 0222 white bufer
Not faulty: ED4M motor telega
Not faulty: ED4M pered telega
Not faulty: ED4M pricep telega
Faulty: ed4m_0410 kabina
Not faulty: ED4M-0157_TEDsound
Not faulty: ED4M-0157_TEDsound
Not faulty: ED4M-0177_hornsound
Not faulty: ed9m_mesh
Not faulty: ed9m_pantograph
Not faulty: ed9m_tablo_num
Not faulty: Electra_hornsound
Not faulty: Electra_motor_engine
Not faulty: Electra_sound_bogey
Faulty: Engine CHS8
Not faulty: enginesound
Not faulty: ER_2_engine
Not faulty: ER_2_motor_engine
Not faulty: er9_mot_sound
Not faulty: et2m bogey_motor variant
Not faulty: et2m bogey_pricep V2
Not faulty: et2m first bogey
Not faulty: ET2m_llc_red
Not faulty: Gen1960 op1
Not faulty: Generator kupe Ammendorf
Not faulty: Generator kupe(2)
Not faulty: hornsound CHS2t
Not faulty: hornsound_ed4m-0303
Not faulty: lights(2)_kupe_off
Not faulty: lights(2)_kupe_on
Not faulty: lights_kupe_off
Not faulty: lights_kupe_on
Not faulty: lights_off
Not faulty: lights_on
Not faulty: llc_Red_bufer_CHS2t
Not faulty: llc_White_bufer_CHS2t
Faulty: n_machinist_1
Faulty: n_machinist_2
Not faulty: n_man_ment_3
Faulty: n_man_ment_4
Faulty: Pantograph CHS4t_1
Not faulty: Passenger
Not faulty: Passengers
Not faulty: Passengers
Not faulty: Red_corona
Not faulty: Red_corona
Not faulty: reflection&sm_swaying library
Not faulty: reflection&sm_swaying library
Not faulty: RZD CHS2t Enginespec
Faulty: rzd ed4m 0086 kabina
Faulty: rzd ed4mk 0029 kabina
Not faulty: rzd er9 llc red 223
Not faulty: rzd et2m_pantograph red
Not faulty: SA3 library 3
Not faulty: SA3 library 3
Not faulty: SA3_coupl_coup_1s
Not faulty: SA3_coupl_UNcoup_1s
Not faulty: SA3_wagon-coupled_(EPT)
Not faulty: SA3_wagon-uncoupled_(EPT)
Faulty dependencies: SKI_sheksna_kupe_interior cor
Not faulty: Sound bogey
Not faulty: Sound_inform_radio
Not faulty: TSM Piket marker mesh
Not faulty: z_tep10_SA3_coupl
Not faulty: z_tep10_SA3_uncoupl



These are in use by 70 Dependent assets:

Faulty dependencies: ??
??? ???? ?????????-????????????
Missing dependencies: ??
??? ???? ver 0.7 sU ??
Missing dependencies: ????? - ???????? ?????? ?? ??????????? z7(Re_Pack)
Missing dependencies: ?????? ????? - ???????? - ????????? KDA ?? V.13
Missing dependencies: ??????? V.1.3 su
Missing dependencies: ??????? V_1.4 SU 3.7
Missing dependencies: ?????-????????
Missing dependencies: ?????-????????-????????? KDA
Missing dependencies: ?????-??????????-???????? ver 1.1 z7
Missing dependencies: ?????2 - ???????? v1.3
Faulty: ??2?-1011
Faulty: ??2?-1013
Not faulty: ??4?-0410 ???????
Faulty dependencies: ??4?-0410 ????????
Not faulty: ??4?-0410 ?????????
Missing dependencies: [TRAINZGAME.COM] ?????? ????? - ???????? - ????????? KDA ??
Missing dependencies: [TRAINZGAME.COM] ?????? ????? - ???????? - ????????? KDA ?? -?? ??(????????)
Missing dependencies: [TRAINZGAME.COM] ?????? ?????-???????? ?? ?? ???
Missing dependencies: [TRAINZGAME.COM]?????? ??????(????????)-????????????? ?? ??? (????????? ????) V 15.5
Missing dependencies: [TRAINZGAME.COM]?????? ??????(????????)-????????????? ?? ??? (??????????? ??\????????) V 15.5
Faulty dependencies: AERO 0406 Golova 1
Faulty dependencies: AERO 0406 Golova 2
Not faulty: AERO 0406 Motor
Faulty: AERO 0406 Pricep
Faulty dependencies: AERO 0409 Golova 1
Faulty dependencies: AERO 0409 Golova 2
Missing dependencies: Belezino-Mosty mult2
Not faulty: Bogey pass plackart ser
Faulty dependencies: CHS4T-480+
Faulty: ed4m_0410 kabina
Not faulty: et2m bogey_pricep V2
Missing dependencies: GREGOVO_MP_SU
Missing dependencies: krash-test
Missing dependencies: LOAD AND UNLOAD.
Missing dependencies: Moscow - Maloyaroslavets Session MP v1.5 (beta)
Missing dependencies: Moscow-Maloyaroslavetc Session MP sU v.1.2 (Beta)
Missing dependencies: Moskow 1.5 beta
Missing dependencies: Moskva-Kievskaya - Aprelevka Session MP v1.8 z7
Missing dependencies: Mosti - Balezino MP TCH
Missing dependencies: Mosti - Balezino MP with the panel DSP z7
Missing dependencies: Mosti - Balezino MP without the panel DSP z7
Missing dependencies: Mosty-Krutoborka-Kolosovo z7 DSP Controller
Missing dependencies: Msk-Malouyzvets 2.0.2 MP TRAINZMULT.COM
Missing dependencies: Msk-Malouyzvets 2.0.3 KDA (Beta)
Missing dependencies: Mst-Blzn-Sln v.4.0 SemiFinal MP
Missing dependencies: RusslandOK
Faulty: rzd ed4m 0086 kabina
Faulty dependencies: RZD ED4M 0397 Golova
Not faulty: RZD ED4M 0397 Motor
Not faulty: RZD ED4M 0397 Pricep
Faulty dependencies: RZD ED4M 0426 Golova
Not faulty: RZD ED4M 0426 Motor
Faulty: RZD ED4M 0426 Pricep
Faulty: rzd ed4mk 0029 kabina
Faulty: RZD_pass car_TVZ
Missing dependencies: Sadovoe-Kiev(tovarniy) 0.1 KDA
Missing dependencies: Session Mosty-Balezino
Missing dependencies: Sountern Ural 2014 SU bild 3.7 v.2test
Missing dependencies: Southern China SU Multyplayer v1.0.1
Missing dependencies: Southern China SU Multyplayer v1.0.2
Missing dependencies: Southern China SU Multyplayer v1.0.3
Missing dependencies: Southern China SU Multyplayer v1.0.4
Missing dependencies: Southern China SU Multyplayer v1.0.4
Missing dependencies: Southern China SU Multyplayer v1.0.7
Not faulty: TSM Piket old 6/7_v1
Faulty dependencies: UZ_DR1A-821_g_v2
Faulty: UZ_DR1A-821_v_v2
Missing dependencies: Uzlovaya v. 1.4.1 Multiplayer Session with Pult DSP
Missing dependencies: Uzlovaya v. 1.5 sU MP
Faulty dependencies: v ??4?-329+


N3V is aware of the situation. Unless the original creator formally complains!!

Note that most of the above dependencies are probably covered by Creative Commons.









 
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