Is Trainz a Threat to the Traditional Model Railroad Business Model?

I wanted to start a thread after reading a few posts in hminky's thread "Making Model Railroadz". I'd like to hear other Trainzers positive or negative experiences when dealing with the model railroad publishing community.

I too reached out to MRH about writing an article introducing Trainz to their readers through my Frisco High Line route. After browsing through my Frisco High Line thread the editor of MRH, Joe Fugate contacted me with several questions. This was promising because he showed genuine interest and it was evident he was not very familiar with any v scale platform.

Needless to say after a few email discussions, a well prepared outline of my article he announced MRH would not be moving forward with the idea. He expressed others' concerns in organization about how v scale fits into the traditioal hobby. Some just didn't get it. I told him I appreciated his honesty and understood their reluctance. I mentioned it was simply an extension to the hobby and not a threat to extinguish the traditional hobby. It makes sense he didn't want to bite the hand that feeds him with all those advertisers in the magazine. I doughbt NV3 will be lining up any time soon to take out an add in MRH.

It was disappointing to see a company leveraging technology to make their space in publishing turn me down. Oh well. Joe did contact me back after a few months of no communication. He asked if I might still be interested. I told him sure but never heard back from him again.

It always amazes me that when N3V brings out a new Trainz they don't look toward magazine advertising (Trains, Model Railroader etc..). Especially with thousands of inspiring screenshots posted here to pick from for an Ad, I'm sure the benefits would out weigh the initial costs.

Congrats on your near article thou!

Rich

I would say no. V scale modeling is nice and it opens up a lot of new doors for the hobby, but in the end, it's just software. To me, nothing compares to the feel of a real model in my hands. That, plus the fact that you can edit any model or kit to fit your prototype, that there are many more models out there for real scales than the 3d world, and the fact that it is so well established make model railroading an entirely different subject than Trainz or any other train sim. If course, Trainz has as many advantages as it has flaws, if not more. The ability to change season, weather, the ability to place an infinite ammount of a single model, and the endless area that you can model in are great features. That's why I think calling it "V scale" is a misnomer, because they are, in essence, different things.

My experience with model railway folk and Trainz and other simulatorss is mixed. On one hand, I've spoken to many people who think it a major threat. You purchase the base game and then you can download all the trains you want and run them. There's no mess, no wiring, no physical labour and no risk of dropping your expensive train and smashing it. It's also safe for the kids (or grandchildren) to mess around with.

On the other hand, I've spoken to people who enjoy both V-Scale (this particular person has Trainz 2010 but is not currently a registered user, or at least is not active on the Forums) and model railways. He's frequently down at my local model railway club with his trains.

At the local model railway show, the Brisbane Model Train Show, there's a stall operated by the Steam4Me people (http://msts.steam4me.net/) which sells MSTS and add-ons for it. It's also where I purchased my MSTS copy.

I found a diagram of my local model railway club's layout on their website and am building it in Trainz. I may take it down to the club once complete and get some general opinions. It's something I've been wanting to do for a while.

In some ways I'd say it does pose a threat. You can, as I mentioned, get a larger collection for less money, and you can do things in real-scale and real time as opposed to shortening distances or giving the impression of long runs. Then there are those who don't want anything to do with computers, like my Grandfather. Train simulators do not pose a threat to the hobby for those kinds of people. and some just prefer a hands-on hobby, tinkering and fiddling with parts, and having physical models.

I've been keeping in contact with the managers and President of my model railway club and it seems that they are worried about the club. They feel that they need to attract more young members (like me) if they are going to survive. for them, simulators probably do pose a threat.

Well, that's a long response and it may or may not provide my opinion on the matter. I do hope it was a good read and was slightly on topic nonetheless.

Kieran.

sad, v-scale is the only reason ive done so much research on trains again. back when i was a kid and wanted to get into it i found the same problem as i have now, to much of a buck for my luck. i have other hobbies that i tend to more and this is a back on my list thanks to my son (love that thomas), but the back-end of the list. thanks to v-scale we can enjoy trains and enter a new route everytime, it's also a renewed interest into maybe making this a more in-depth experience as my son grows (if he loves it and so do i, then why not run with it?).

trainz and other pc train sims are a poor man's version to the other scales, but they offer a different experience as well. you cant cab-drive a steam/diesel/electric loco in HO as in trainz...unless there is a lil fireman, engineer, working boiler, etc in that steamer instead of a electric motor =D. sure as heck couldnt drive mojave sub, at a comparative price of ts12 vs HO(or N). i can now enjoy many railways and locomotives without a good penny, yet i can still work to HO or another scale for yet another experience in trains.

heck, if/when i go to a realistic scale my son wont be meddling with things. v-scale is another way to keep him from breaking anything till he is of age, until then he can join me in a trainz experience. =3

scratchy said:

It always amazes me that when N3V brings out a new Trainz they don't look toward magazine advertising (Trains, Model Railroader etc..).

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I think this question was raised a few years ago - the answer given then (and it may still be the same today) was that those magazines rely heavily (perhaps almost totally) on advertising from manufacturers and retailers of traditional railway modelling supplies and do not want to risk their "ire" by promoting a product than many of them would see as a threat to their livelihood.

pware said:

...those magazines rely heavily (perhaps almost totally) on advertising from manufacturers and retailers of traditional railway modelling supplies and do not want to risk their "ire" by promoting a product than many of them would see as a threat to their livelihood....

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I think that's spot on, if you were a publisher would you risk alienating 99% of your advertisers ? No way !

There must be plenty of would be railway modellers out there who don't have the space, or the money to afford 'real' models. They become armchair modellers, buying the magazines and dream that one day they will. With so many PCs in the home these days (even if a good few are not up to current Trainz & future TANE specs) there must be a market out there among these potential modellers, the question is how do you reach it ?

I agree that a virtual railroad is not the same thing as having a real layout: on the other hand, it is far more cheaper (even if you include a high-end PC), requires almost no physical space and allows faithful reproduction of the prototype. And yes, I think that it can be a real threat to "real" modelling, especially among the youngest people.

In the past, TrainZItalia had some contacts a model railroad shows with a couple Italian model railroading magazines: both of them initially expressed some interest, which quickly vanished. One of the editors frankly admitted (in private) that they feared the reaction of their advertisers.

Since I purchased my first Trainz back in 2002, I remember seeing exactly three articles about train simulators:

- one in "Model Railroader", which described Trainz mostly as a layout design tool;
- one in "Railroad Modeler Craftsman", an objective article, which also described MSTS;
- one in an Italian magazine, a very critical piece, filled with laughable arguments that drove me to send them a very angry e-mail: by way of example, the author quoted as a very weak point the fact that you can have a TGV hauling Australian ore cars (as if you cannot do the same with HO models ).

The biggest problem in this area was the great loss of higher paying jobs. One of the biggest and oldest hobby shop in town closed it's doors and several others as well. We are still not showing much sign of recovering. Plus the cost of a pair of good ho scale locomotives has doubled from $250 to $500 or more. It is easy to spend $1000 or more for a small startup model railroad. Spending $25 dollers a year on a FCT makes a lot more sense.

I have stopped the "brick and mortar" model railroading as this is much cheaper, has less restrictions and when I retire in a few years I don't have to have a large basement with a house on top to build it.

I think it's a HUGH threat. If people dreaming of building a model railroad had a look at what can be accomplished in trainz, I think the futures of all those involved in the model railroad business would be very bleak. I'm surprised that all the train simulator people have not gone after this market. I found out about train sims from a friend when we were into flight sims. I never gave it much thought until he sent me to a couple of sites with screenshots. I was hooked!

Cheers...Rick

Actually I have mixed feelings about it. Jackson hits the nail on the head. Over at a real model railroad website/forum I belong to, I showed the guys there the modeltrainz setup. They were very interested for route design and we had quite a discussion going about it. I told them I'm a v-scale modeler so don't yell at me as I've gotten that before from other places. The thing is, this is virtual and being virtual is doesn't quite have that touchy-feely aspect of modeling. The experience is not quite the same. There's nothing as exciting as building a real model railroad and watching, smelling, and hearing those trains move through the scenery. In some ways it's not more difficult to build a scene in a virtual model railroad than it is to do the same for the real thing. The advantages we have though here are that we can do this for nearly free, we can retry things over and over without wasting any money, and there's no mess to clean up afterwards. The similarity is like a digital grand piano versus a Bösendorfer Imperial Grand. There is that something missing called depth which is always in the real world.

Over the years, we've lost many brick-and-mortar hobby shops. In part this is due to the changing times, economy, and focus on internet sales. It also doesn't help that the owners are competed against by their own suppliers such as Tower Hobbies which also sells direct to the consumer at competing prices.

John

V-Scale is just another "scale" you either like virtual or you don't.

There is no "threat". The modeling world has the same attitude towards everyone's scale/gauge, "if youse ain't doing my scale youse are obviously misguided".

Harold

hminky said:

V-Scale is just another "scale" you either like virtual or you don't.

There is no "threat". The modeling world has the same attitude towards everyone's scale/gauge, "if youse ain't doing my scale youse are obviously misguided".

Harold

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I agree. The biggest threat is the attitude among the different modeling scale factions.

John

Pendolino said:

...I think that it can be a real threat to "real" modelling, especially among the youngest people...

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I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the UK the people who are active in 'real' modelling tend to be of "a certain age group" and relatively well off - they bemoan the lack of youngsters joining the hobby but at the same time insist that the hobby should be the same as it was 30years ago. Naturally those with commercial interests in the 'real' hobby want the status quo, there's not much money to be made in retailing boxed copies of a Train Simulator.

How N3V get the message out to youngsters is an interesting subject, after all 'train spotting' is not a very coooool thing to do these days. I think the move into mobiles and tablets may help in widening the Trainz audience, time will tell.

I think that yes it is a threat to the traditional model railway. Why? Well theres several reasons for that, besides the complications of zillions of wires, power and etc... Its also cheaper than the model railway. Think about it, for a copy of Trainz 12 it cost $30... For a new Athern Model ES44AC with DCC cost almost $300, or you can go to JR, and get it for $10 and its just as good as the Athern model. Theres millions and millions and millions of assets that can be downloaded for free which you can't get for any model railway in real life that can be used to build routes. Plus the operation is more life-like than any model railway can give. You can build layouts in any home now and it can be endless in size, as I don't think anybody has ever struck the length limit for a route in trainz yet if there is one. Why should we pay $1000's to build something we can do much cheaper in a virtual world (Depends on which sim you're talking about though, some can cost as much as a small model RR in the long run) Thats my take on it.

I used to model in OO years ago but lost interest and sold off all the stuff.

Buying a copy of Railway Modeller the other month to whet my appetite for Model Railroadz ideas, I was horrified to see how expensive it has become. Over £100 for a RTR steam outline loco or £130 for a three car EMU or DMU set. £20 for a passenger coach. I don't consider myself particularly hard up but I would seriously baulk at paying that sort of price, when there's a mortgage to finish paying off and a pension plan to square up. And that's before setting up all the bench and trackwork plus scenic items. I know the argument goes that you have to pay for the PC, but most people have a home computer these days anyway.

Yes there's something about real life 3D models running around a layout, but not at that price. Interestingly the same edition of the magazine contained an Op-Ed lamenting the new take up of the model railway hobby. I fired off a letter pointing out the answer is contained in the prices listed in their advertising copy - it has moved from being a generally affordable hobby for people on an average income, to one for those where money and what it's spent on is no object. So in answer to the original question, is VR a direct threat - well it's certainly an affordable alternative for those who don't happen to have £200 loose change this week to buy a loco and three coaches.

Interesting. I learned about Trainz and MSTS through an article in Model Railroader years ago. Right now its too much a threat to their advertisers who sell model trains.*

not anymore threatening than a flight simulator is to remote control planes, that is what I think...

Yes it is ... Computer games, playstation, and train simulators ... the death bell knell, slowly tolls, over model train sales.

You go to model RR conventions and vendors tell you: "A thousand people came, stood and looked, picked it up, looked at it, and said $125 ? ... and put it back down, and walked away ... I sold only 2 sales, in 2 days" !