Metro North Derailment

gfisher said:

It would appear that Engineerkenny was right from the latest news reports.

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Seems so

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork/AP) – The engineer at the controls of a Metro-North train that derailed over the weekend told investigators he had “zoned out” moments before the crash, police sources told CBS 2.

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http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/12...t-prior-to-deadly-crash-according-to-reports/

boc61 said:

Seems so



http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/12...t-prior-to-deadly-crash-according-to-reports/

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Very interesting.

Here's yesterday's info briefing from the NTSB

http://youtu.be/bT0N6tiC7ak

The drug and cell phone forensics haven't come back yet, but this is a nice summary of what was found along with the typical dumb press questions.

John

One thing I'm curious about, if it turns out that the engineer had "zoned out" is whether it would be beneficial to go back to two people in the cab for all passenger trains. I realize railroads would balk at paying another person to sit there, and with the coming implementation of PTC it might be redundant, but would a second crewman help prevent an engineer from missing signals/speed limits and/or dozing off at the throttle?

Just throwing some ideas out there.

Eboy87 said:

One thing I'm curious about, if it turns out that the engineer had "zoned out" is whether it would be beneficial to go back to two people in the cab for all passenger trains. I realize railroads would balk at paying another person to sit there, and with the coming implementation of PTC it might be redundant, but would a second crewman help prevent an engineer from missing signals/speed limits and/or dozing off at the throttle?

Just throwing some ideas out there.

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This is a good idea, but as you've said it's all about the money that the railroads are willing to spend.

Not to speculate, but perhaps his zone out wasn't so much to do with drugs. It could be anything from poor sleep to illness or disease such as diabetes, blood pressure drop, neurological conditions. With someone else in the cab, it would make things safer for the engineer and the rest of the passengers.

John

Here's some interesting video of the crash site showing ripped up track, broken railcars and righting the cars on the tracks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DRCg8zA7kw&feature=share&list=UUe5dWbxxvQqDAHmyMrEF7Kw&index=1

This is taken by the NTSB www.ntsb.gov


John

If he had a medical condition that made him susceptible to fainting spells he shouldn't have been driving a moped - let alone a train. I would think an engineer would be subject to annual physical exams so wouldn't such a condition have shown up?

Ben

bendorsey said:

If he had a medical condition that made him susceptible to fainting spells he shouldn't have been driving a moped - let alone a train. I would think an engineer would be subject to annual physical exams so wouldn't such a condition have shown up?

Ben

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True unless it was undetected. He could have been taking cold medication or something that could cause that too.

Although... I just heard on the news a few minutes ago that he had just changed shifts. Could this be the equivalent to a bit of jet lag and he was still tired due to the time change. Some people are affected by this more than others. I used bounce between first and second shift all the time without any problems, then would die when I got hit with a third shift one top of it all. That was the tough one because it's so noisy where I live. The others were easy. He may be one of those people that can't handle this kind of thing.

John

Depends on how they arrange changing shifts. In one direction its only 8 hours between them. The other way gives you 24 hours. The 8 hour way can be difficult as you certainly don't get hours of sleep - just 8 hours off.

Ben

Hi everybody.

JCitron said:

Not to speculate, but perhaps his zone out wasn't so much to do with drugs. It could be anything from poor sleep to illness or disease such as diabetes, blood pressure drop, neurological conditions. With someone else in the cab, it would make things safer for the engineer and the rest of the passengers.

John

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I feel the John is possibly visiting the right area when talking in terms of concentration being the root cause of this accident. As I have posted on other threads it often comes to be that it is serious problems in a person’s personal life that lead to vehicle accidents, although those problems are in no way related to the actual driving of a vehicle.

As John states they can often be medical, financial, problems with partners or other family members or any number of things which can cause much subconscious thinking when you are in fact carrying out other matters in real life. As an example, we have all been driving along the motorway/freeway and at the same time subconsciously thinking of other things in your life. Throughout that you remain conscious of what is going on around you on the road and react to the reducing speed of traffic or when you are coming up to a turnoff etc. This is perfectly normal behaviour and the body is well adjusted to be able to efficiently carry it out.

However, there are times when problems are perceived to be so overbearing that the subconscious thinking completely takes over the brain and at that point the person then fails to react to what is going on around him. If at that moment a person is in charge of machinery or driving a vehicle an accident can often become the outcome.

The foregoing is very often drawn out in interviews with persons who have been the sole or main cause of an accident and is usually only brought forward in the root cause investigation. The primary cause investigation may conceivably conclude that the driver in this incident was exceeding the speed limit on the bend. The root cause investigation could quite probably lead its conclusion to circumstances similar to the above.

I am using the experiences of work colleagues and myself drawn from in depth interviews with persons involved in incidents over many years of accident investigation.


Bill

Are commuter railroads like LIRR and MNRR supposed to have dead man's controls or AWS or ATC?

How come no-one was electrocuted during the accident?

Surely falling asleep would be the only answer, normally you would have started braking from 70 way before the curve so for him to maintain that speed there must have been like a 5-odd minute gap when he should have been actively applying the brakes...?

Horrible accident and my condolences to the families and friends involved.

Some "other" thoughts on the matter... http://www.iridetheharlemline.com/2013/12/04/black-and-white-photographs-commuter-life/

I wonder, what is going to happen to those derailed shoreliner cab car, coaches and locomotive. The coaches and cab car looked like they were in pretty bad condition after the derailment. Will they be rebuilt at the yards or will they get sent for scrap. If I remember correctly, the shoreliners with the center door never went through an overhaul or rebuild process but the shoreliners without the center door were rebuilt/overhauled around 2008 or 2009.

Here's an update on the accident as of 12/05...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nyc-train-wreck-engineer-suspended-without-pay/

The driver has been suspended without pay. The investigation is still going on regarding his "zoning out" and the officials are awaiting the drug tests for the driver and the crew, the alcohol tests came back clean.

John

Feds order two operators to be in the cab of Metro North trains when ever a more than 20mph speed change is required or until more safety measures are put in place.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/0...-operators-for-metro-north/?intcmp=latestnews