Trainz and DRM

RRSignal

Cheesesteak Guru
Hi Tony,

For others who are reading, I am taking Mr. Hilliam up on an offer to another poster and myself to outline the issues with Trainz' DRM system. (edit: I would be remiss if I didn't explain what DRM stands for: Digital Rights Management.)

While I cannot speak for KingConrail76, my definition of DRM seems to align with most common understandings of it of which I'm aware: It is a system that requires some form of interaction with the developer/manufacturer/distributor/seller/etc. after purchase in order to use the product or some part of it. One-time product activation, as well as sometimes-on DRM (as TS12 has begun using as of SP1 for DLC) and always-on DRM all fit this category.

The primary problem with DRM is, while it may have originated as a means of copy-protection, it's used, today, as a means of limiting a customer's use of a product, whether by deliberate design (as in many if not most cases) or by accident, failings of business, nature, whatever. Let's consider the traditional product-activation scenario: You install your software, but have to activate it over the internet (or, in some cases, you have the option of telephone.) That's fine as long as the company is:

1. Still in business,

2. you haven't used up all your allowed activations,

3. as long as there is a means to accomplish activation,

4. as long as the company chooses to support your product.

In other words, you could lose the product you paid for, not to mention the ability to use any add-ons, including those you've made yourself, if any one of the following is true:

1. Manufacturer (or anyone else in the chain) goes out of business. Note that this has already happened to Auran once, and the fact that they need to roll out a product on Kickstarter isn't a sign of a financially-health company.

2. The number of activations is arbitrary. Purely as an example, some vendors allow only 3 activations. I've installed Trainz more than 3 times in the last year alone. Probably a good number if not a majority of long-time Trainzers and power users (who reformat their HDDs regularly to clean up our systems) have done so in the past as well. Whether the limit is 3, 5, or 20, for many users, it's likely to cause problems for a good number of users.

3. There needs to be a means to activation. Since it's pretty much a given that N3V doesn't have the resources to man a 24/7 phone bank, that means internet. However, many customers live in areas with spotty internet service. Far more serious, many users live on fixed incomes, so requiring an internet connection just to use a product one already paid for is likely too much of a burden for many.

4. A company can simply choose to stop accepting activations/authorizations for a product. Some of the biggest companies in the world have done it: Wal-Mart, Yahoo, Microsoft (twice) and Amazon are but a few of a few major companies that simply decided to stop supporting DRMed content, in most cases leaving their customers with worthless purchases. Amazon's DRM system allegedly allowed them to remotely delete content off of customer's Kindles.

Another problem with DRM is that many forms of it (especially most forms of activation) are sensitive to hardware changes. Routine repairs or upgrades effectively "break" an activation. On limited-activation DRM systems, this often means a user uses up one of their allotted activations.

These are only the problems I have personally encountered or know about; other problems such as companies banning users for whatever reason is yet another potential problem, albeit one I have not experienced personally and is only practiced by some companies. I'm also not getting into the issue of the new DRM system locking payware DLC.

Now, here's WHY I oppose DRM and will not support any product that uses it. First and foremost, I need to run my gaming rig offline i.e. standalone, with NO internet access. A lot of gamers do. This is critical for performance. I run Trainz in a partition that only runs Trainz, a few other games and some business applications. Antivirus, firewalls, even the network connection itself consume tremendous resources. Plus, it's infinitely more secure. So, running online is not an option.

The other reason is because I still want to be able to use the game and DLC I paid for if N3V ever goes under or for whatever reason I'm not able to maintain an internet connection. Nearly all the games I own (apart from a few sims including Trainz) are at least 15 years old and most are 20 or 30.

More importantly, I'd like to protect my investment. And, yes, I've invested A LOT of money in the Trainz franchise - probably about a grand at least - not to mention the time I spent learning both the program and the content creation tools I use to make my own content. So, yes, Trainz represents a considerable investment.

Now, I don't have a problem with serial numbers, simply because keeping a serial number is no more difficult than keeping a proper backup of the software. I don't expect a broke or long-gone company to supply me with discs to reinstall my game, nor do I expect them to supply me with a serial number. But, while I can keep a backup of my discs and/or serial number, a can't expect a broke or long-dead company to supply me with the Activation Codes DRM systems require. It's that simple.

Yes, I know N3V's argument is going to be that all a pirate needs is a stolen serial key and they can use the software. Maybe, maybe not. A number of companies have integrated a serial number key revocation list with new patches and updates of their software, which would render software running a stolen/pirated serial inoperative upon updating. Simply providing an updated key revocation list with each game or DLC update (or, heck, perhaps with every DLS access attempt) would prevent most if not all warez serial numbers from being used. Furthermore, N3V can simply blacklist users attempting to use stolen/warez serial numbers from the DLS and forums. Considering how basic this is, I'd think...I'd hope...that's already being done.

Which brings me to another topic: In N3V's case, DRM is just so completely unnecessary. Unlike many software companies, N3V offers a value-added service in the form of the DLS. While it's possible a pirate could still use a serial with a specific version of the game, they cannot take advantage of what really makes Trainz truly worthwhile - the tons of content on the DLS.

So, Mr. Hilliam, I hope you can understand why myself and quite a few other users have expressed unwillingness to continue supporting Trainz. There are better happy media which can strike a balance between users' needs and N3V's.
 
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Well put RRSignal, I think there are a lot more users who have supported Trainz for more than ten years who feel the same. The fact that N3V doesn't seem to care about us and is only interested in aiming for the current fickle gamer group rather than the long term supporters who stood by Auran and them through thick and thin.
cheers,
Mike
 
Some valid concerns, but DRM is the way the software industry is going. That, plus the subscription-based model instead of one-time purchase price. We just finished our annual IT conference at the university where I work. Adobe briefed us on their "Creative Cloud" distribution and licensing models. Their DRM will check once a month to validate licensing, and we'll pay a recurring annual fee. Businesses and personal users will require a monthly subscription. So, if the great cyberwar ever starts and the Internet is down for over a month, no more Adobe Creative Cloud (Photoshop, Acrobat Pro, InDesign, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, etc., etc.). But, I imagine I'll be more worried about my next meal instead of software if that ever happens! :p
 
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Some valid concerns, but DRM is the way the software industry is going. That, plus the subscription-based model instead of one-time purchase price. We just finished our annual IT conference at the university where I work. Adobe briefed us on their "Creative Cloud" distribution and licensing models. Their DRM will check once a month to validate licensing, and we'll pay a recurring annual fee. Businesses and personal users will require a monthly subscription. So, if the great cyberwar ever starts and the Internet is down for over a month, no more Adobe Creative Cloud (Photoshop, Acrobat Pro, InDesign, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, etc., etc.). But, I imagine I'll be more worried about my next meal instead of software if that ever happens! :p

While what you're saying is true, but it's really comparing apples and oranges. For one thing, we're not talking about a professional application; nobody depends on Trainz for their livelihood except for N3V and, maybe, to a far lesser extent, JR. The other issue is that Trainz isn't the only game in town, where as in the professional world, there is often (if not almost-always) one and only one option available.

Also, while the subscription model is great for Adobe, it's horrendous for the end-user; based on the last-available retail version of Photoshop, one's subscription fees would exceed the one-time purchase price of this very-expensive software in a mere 18 months. A lot of users simply won't be able to afford it, especially in an entertainment product like Trainz.

While brings me back to a point I mentioned earlier. Not only is a subscription model a rip-off for the consumer, but it seems the demographic that uses Trainz is very unusual in that users tend to be either very young or very old i.e. on a fixed and limited income. Much more so than the typical videogame demographic or prized 18-49, let alone the professional one.

Again, while you're correct that the professional products are going the way of Software-as-a-Service, consumer products like Trainz don't have to go down the subscription road.
 
Yes, I know N3V's argument is going to be that all a pirate needs is a stolen serial key and they can use the software. Maybe, maybe not. A number of companies have integrated a serial number key revocation list with new patches and updates of their software, which would render software running a stolen/pirated serial inoperative upon updating. Simply providing an updated key revocation list with each game or DLC update (or, heck, perhaps with every DLS access attempt) would prevent most if not all warez serial numbers from being used. Furthermore, N3V can simply blacklist users attempting to use stolen/warez serial numbers from the DLS and forums. Considering how basic this is, I'd think...I'd hope...that's already being done.

Which brings me to another topic: In N3V's case, DRM is just so completely unnecessary. Unlike many software companies, N3V offers a value-added service in the form of the DLS. While it's possible a pirate could still use a serial with a specific version of the game, they cannot take advantage of what really makes Trainz truly worthwhile - the tons of content on the DLS.

Amen to that. I believe I've brought up these very same points before but the thread seems to have been deleted.
 
I have a feeling I know partially why there are restrictions for DLC packs. Not sure if you remember not too long ago we had a problem with certain Russian users cloning uploading content that they shouldn't have (bort85 being one of them). This has probably played a part in having to prevent the DLC content from having the same problem. I agree that it should only need to be one-time though.

Shane
 
While what you're saying is true, but it's really comparing apples and oranges.
Quite right, and my post wasn't intended as a direct comparison between Adobe products and Trainz but rather an example of the direction that one of the biggest software companies is headed. But, I don't believe any complaining by us or anyone will change the DRM trend at N3V or elsewhere. :confused: I can't help but think that subscription charges might come, too, someday. To use Adobe as an example again, that $10 a month sub fee is intended to break the new version cycle we're used to. It's their intention to release new features and functions quicker via the cloud, instead of major new version-number releases every three years. So, if NV3 offered Trainz as a sub for, say, $1 a month and you'd never again have to "buy" a new version on its release, I bet it would work, despite protests from youngsters and us geezers. Of course, all speculation and tea leaf fortune telling on that topic at this point. But, we shall see, wont' we?
 
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Note that this has already happened to Auran once, and the fact that they need to roll out a product on Kickstarter isn't a sign of a financially-health company.
If there any evidence to back up this assertion? I am unaware that running a KS prodject is any indicator of a company's financial status.
 
Quite right, and my post wasn't intended as a direct comparison between Adobe products and Trainz but rather an example of the direction that one of the biggest software companies is headed. But, I don't believe any complaining by us or anyone will change the DRM trend at N3V or elsewhere. :confused: I can't help but think that subscription charges might come, too, someday.

Lol, I'd like to see a response from Tony, and not harp on the subscription thing, but I have to say this: I said that back in June. So did other people, IIRC. Windwalkr Chris definitely gave the impression that it's the way to go, and he definitely seems to have a lot of pull at N3V.

But, DRM is not inevitable assuming N3V was truthful about their reasons for implementing it: That they are concerned about piracy in 'certain parts of the world'. There are a lot of users who are thoroughly turned off by the DRM - enough that it will probably hurt far more financially to lose us than any supposed gain in countries where a copy of the game at retail price is 20-50% of a month's wages.

But, yes, they could very well be laying the groundwork for a subscription-only model with the DRM.
 
If there any evidence to back up this assertion? I am unaware that running a KS prodject is any indicator of a company's financial status.

That they're on KS and asking for money.

If they merely wanted people's opinions, they could have done a poll.

Edit: While I could point to several other statements to support my contention that N3V isn't in ideal shape financially, the purpose of this thread isn't to debate minutae like this, but rather to honor Tony's request to move the DRM topic to a separate thread, to outline the problems it poses, and to give him a chance to address the DRM issue and it's future implementation, if any, in Trainz.
 
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That they're on KS and asking for money.

If they merely wanted people's opinions, they could have done a poll.
There are plenty of companies on KickStarter asking for funds for their projects. Frontier Developments for example. Launched a KS for Elite Dangerous and then followed that up with a listing on the Alternative Investment Market (AIM) on the London Stock Exchange with a market capitalisation of approximately £39.4 million.

Clearly on their uppers.
 
Again, while I could point to several other statements to support my contention that N3V isn't in ideal shape financially, the purpose of this thread isn't to debate minutae like this, but rather to honor Tony's request to move the DRM topic to a separate thread, to outline the problems it poses, and to give him a chance to address the DRM issue and it's future implementation, if any, in Trainz.
 
Again, while I could point to several other statements to support my contention that N3V isn't in ideal shape financially, the purpose of this thread isn't to debate minutae like this, but rather to honor Tony's request to move the DRM topic to a separate thread, to outline the problems it poses, and to give him a chance to address the DRM issue and it's future implementation, if any, in Trainz.
Good idea.

Perhaps you shouldn't have raised the issue in the first place if it was off topic and your example was no indicator anyway.
 
Good idea.

Perhaps you shouldn't have raised the issue in the first place if it was off topic and your example was no indicator anyway.

Since it's actually relevant, and it's clear that you feel the need to split hairs and seem unwilling to address the original subject of this thread, I'll start a new thread on this at a later date with additional support to address your concerns. For now, though, let's stick to the issue of DRM.
 
I find DRM objectionable but it has always been with us to some extent - back in the days of Microprose etc. military flight sims, you had to match an aircraft silhouette with one from the manual before you could play, as some proof you actually owned the game. A variation was to ask for a particular word or phrase from a certain page in the manual. Unfortunately the advent of the internet made it much easier for companies to do this type of thing via online authentication, in the process killing secondhand sales of their software stone dead.

However, my objections to DRM are in direct proportion to how much I want to play the title and Steam along with various other bespoke "jackets" are a sad fact of life on my hard drive these days. You do have to wonder exactly how much money a train sim based on 2001 technology really loses to piracy though. The Russian contingent has been mentioned as an example, but if they weren't pirating it then they probably aren't going to pay up and buy it anyway. Same goes for other poor areas of the world where £30 probably = a months wages.

The whole thing also flies in the face of N3V's somewhat lackadaisical approach to protecting the copyright and intellectual property of contributors. We have a DLS where essentially you sign over to N3V that they can do what they like with your work. Any Tom, Dick or Bort85 can take your route, plant a couple of new bushes and upload it as their own work. A scenic item you create can be referenced in someone's payware route without a cent of royalty payment to you as the original author. Yet whenever these topics have come up in discussion, N3V have acted as if they think it's quite alright and the impression you get is they don't give a toss about protecting end user copyright.

Didn't mean to digress but the above I think adds to the debate where DRM is concerned here, as the N3V stance seems to be don't do as I do, do as I say.
 
Sorry if I expect statements to be factual as well as popular. As it happens I'm not a fan of the DRM that N3V have introduced, but using bad examples does no service to the anti-DRM cause.
 
Sorry if I expect statements to be factual as well as popular. As it happens I'm not a fan of the DRM that N3V have introduced, but using bad examples does no service to the anti-DRM cause.

Perhaps base your statements and beliefs in some semblance of fact and then we'll talk. In another thread, of course.

Now, you say you're not a fan of N3V's DRM. Why?
 
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Perhaps base your statements and beliefs in some semblance of fact and then we'll talk. In another thread, of course.

Now, you say you're not a fan of N3V's DRM. Why?
Because if N3V go belly up I lose access to the content. However, I won't cut off my nose to spite my face if N3V choose to continue with DRM. That's my choice, others are free to choose according to their facts and beliefs. :)
 
Because if N3V go belly up I lose access to the content. However, I won't cut off my nose to spite my face if N3V choose to continue with DRM. That's my choice, others are free to choose according to their facts and beliefs. :)

Ok, a valid concern. So, if N3V takes the next logical step in terms of DRM - applying it to the game itself and, if they go belly up, aren't you concerned about losing everything you paid for or created yourself?
 
Ok, a valid concern. So, if N3V takes the next logical step in terms of DRM - applying it to the game itself and, if they go belly up, aren't you concerned about losing everything you paid for or created yourself?
That is a concern, but it would only apply to those elements of Trainz that require 'call back' DRM, which as of now is N3V DLC. Incidently, I don't use any of my N3V DLC at the moment as it requires a 'Windows' dongle. :)
 
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