A fair enough question with a simple answer: Money makes the world go 'round. Patching an old version does not create new revenue. Patching the latest version stimulates buying the latest version (and auxiliaries), and therefore generates revenue with less than an all-out effort. Producing a new version makes the most revenue, but requires the greatest investment.
Question about DLS Cleanup
- Thread starter Scottbe8
- Start date
A fair enough question with a simple answer: Money makes the world go 'round. Patching an old version does not create new revenue. Patching the latest version stimulates buying the latest version (and auxiliaries), and therefore generates revenue with less than an all-out effort. Producing a new version makes the most revenue, but requires the greatest investment.
KingConrail76
New member
So how does/should that affect OLDER CONTENT, (DLS Cleanup - topic of discussion)...
If N3v can not create a new version of Trainz that is compatible with existing content, or doesn't break existing content, they have no business in the software industry, imo.
-I will not get into the whole discussion of the validity of any new version of trainz, because until they write a new core game engine code, everything they release is just an update of an old version, created to generate revenue that they appearently can not manage well enough to re-invest in their future, and every asset they update to be incompatible with old versions is just one more nail in their own coffin.
When the versions of Trainz I have are no longer useable, I will go back to the much older, but still working MSTS.
narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
I would disagree with the 'handful' description. I would argue that those who wish to stay with out-of-date versions are in a tiny minority and will have to accept that they are going to be left behind and will have problems. I have used every version of Trainz, and have no reservations in saying that I think TS12 is the best of the series.
Peter
Erm, very unlikely; most likely, users of out-of-date versions are a majority, if not very active. Probably a very heavy majority of Trainz owners. Even a large amount - possibly close to half - of the regular posters to the forum don't have TS12, and many not even 10 or 09, looking at timelines. Plus, there are a lot of users of legacy versions who simply don't post here anymore. And that's not even discussing the people who never posted here (which is probably the majority of Trainz purchasers, regardless of version), the people who bought TS12 and use earlier ones anyway, etc.
Of course, not too long ago, N3V themselves have said they don't consider users of legacy versions to be customers*, which says a lot about their character as a company. Not that many if not most here hadn't figured that out.
*http://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...2006&p=1201296&highlight=customer#post1201296
Also, my boxed copy of TS2010, bought on pre-order before the game was released, claims over 1,000,000 copies of Trainz sold. That was probably printed around October of 2009. My kuid (minus the 30,000), which was assigned around that time is 451,384. There are only 619,599 registered forum members (registering the game automatically registers one for the forums) as of 5 minutes ago. That suggests about only about 168,000 copies of every Trainz game have been sold and registered since then - TS2010, TS12, Trainz for Mac, Android, and iPad, and even legacy versions of TRS2004, TRS2006, etc. bought from other sources. That suggests Trainz has only grown about 17% since the release of TS2010 - and that means all versions, not just TS12 or the mobile versions.
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KingConrail76
New member
I have TS12, and as of SP1-HF3, it is an OUTDATED version, SP-1, HF3 having been given a whole new build number of 3.7...not even a year old purchase.
Compared to the users of STILL SUPPORTED TS2006, TS2009, TS2010 and TS12-preSP1, there are only a "handful" of "users" who are exclusively TS12 SP1, HF3, and there will be even fewer users of whatever the next version is, if it comes out within the next 6-12 months, because a majority of the 'handful" just bought the TS12 SP1 HF3 version two weeks ago, on-sale, and I highly doubt many of them will be buying the next version after having problems with SP1, HF3.
I think this is were a LOT of folks do not understand how grande the situation really is...TS12 Pre-SP1, HF3 (and everything before it) is now considered "Obsolete", and is essentially unsupported...the only support offered or available to upgrade to SP1, HF3...which is too unstable on way too many systems, for no appearant reason.
--And yes, I did install all the updates and patches, and had SP1, HF3...I gave it a fair chance...It should have never been released, it is unfinished and poorly thought out on so many levels.
KingConrail76
New member
Amen Brother, N3V shot themselves in the foot bigtime with DRM/DLC and excluding sales of DLC to anyone with a version older than TS12 SP1, HF3.
-let me rephrase that..."use of DLC to anyone without TS12 SP1 HF3"...as anyone can buy it, and will not get a refund when they find it unusable in anything older.
JackDownUnder
Active member
There must be a reason for what has been done which will only become obvious when the next generation becomes available.
I for one run the whole upgrade and whist there have been some issues it now appears to be running satisfactory.
I certainly like the upgrade work being carried out on content which automatically downloads and instals when running the game.
My route, while not complete is over 1Mb in the session, having used up all the drivers that are available, and runs fine.
My biggest problem is finding enough period, 1910 to 1940 rolling stock, also changing road traffic to suit the same period.
I for one run the whole upgrade and whist there have been some issues it now appears to be running satisfactory.
I certainly like the upgrade work being carried out on content which automatically downloads and instals when running the game.
My route, while not complete is over 1Mb in the session, having used up all the drivers that are available, and runs fine.
My biggest problem is finding enough period, 1910 to 1940 rolling stock, also changing road traffic to suit the same period.
I was answering your question as to why update is required by stating what drives update.
I dare say modeling, rendering technology, and graphic card hardware have evolved over the past ten or more years since the first version of Trainz. No one can absolutely anticipate progress. We certainly don't want to maintain Trainz with "turn of the century" technology either, that is a sure way to kill it off. I have been able to move all my TRS2004 stuff to TS12.
As you can see above I jumped from TRS2004 to TS12, and they have different core engine codes, rewritten interfaces, and different driving AI.
I found it nearly impossible, if not extremly difficult to create a route in MSTS. I remember the 2002 version could not even drive a track circle I created without crashing.
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KingConrail76
New member
You keep pulling the subject of discussion away from the ORIGINAL TOPIC; DLS Clean-up.
-and I might add, are disturbingly focused on MY comments...feel free to get off my nutz, as your opinion is not going to change my opinion.
---My 12 year old MSTS has fewer bugs and faults than my SIX MONTH old TS12-SP1-HF3 installation...I can work around the "no circular paths" bug.
N3V can easily make a new version of Trainz that will happily accept all the old content, and still make use of new technology and from that point forward, require NEW content to make use of that new technology...they do NOT HAVE TO RUIN older content for older users in order to update the core Trainz game, and any future content/assets. (This is already partially in effect, as there have been new standards set for content creators).
Better yet, they could, and in fact SHOULD get off their lazy arses, and create some new content of their own (or purchase it from a 3rd party to be included with the next release). I get that it's catch-22+2; must have new content, must sell new game to pay for new content, must have new content to sell new game, must sell old game at discount to get money for new content that old game can't use, can't afford new content-must update old content so old users MUST upgrade to new game, sell new game to buy new content...oh, wait, old content is good enough...just pocket profits..
You bring up TRS2004, excellent point you make for me.
TRS2004, by AURAN...got a major overhaul, but did not break any content in doing so.
TS2009/TS2010/TS12/TS12-sp1-hf3, by N3V...got a fancy new GUI, new error checking, new bugs, a BUNCH of new faults, and the requirement for an Internet connection, but all using the same JET core game engine.
I see a lot of other differences in the way Auran did business compared to N3V's business practice too...but not the topic of this discussion.
johnwhelan
Well-known member
I have content created for TRS2004 which runs fine in TS12. I have content created in TS12 that if you change the version number runs fine in TRS2004.
Some of my earlier content had errors that weren't detected in TRS2004 but when corrected it still ran in TRS2004 and TS12.
Normal mapping was supported in TRS2004 but its a bit more main stream in TS12, we have a few other texture features but you don't need to use them. I'm not sure what other new features you are referring to other than perhaps speedtrees and I don't make those they are a bit specialised.
Cheerio John
narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
Nothing appeared to be broken but this was because TRS2004 had no error checking and errors in content did not show up. From TRS2006 to TS12 error checking has become more effective to increase the efficiency of the game. The 'broken' content you refer to would not be 'broken' if it had been made to the correct standards in the first place.
We built the DHR route for TRS2004 and it contained a lot of errors that we did not know about. That route has been updated to later standards and runs like a dream in TS12.
I have experienced every Trainz version from the first Community edition to the latest TS12 build 3.7 and as far as I'm concerned, the latest IS the best.
Peter
Hi All,
I have just downloaded a loco that is in the DLS cleanup file for updating. The instructions in the updating section say to "create a new version" this is what I frequently do after cloning an item but the problem is since this does not have my kuid number the "create new version" function is greyed out and cannot be used. So what is the way around this?
Cheers,
Bill69
I have just downloaded a loco that is in the DLS cleanup file for updating. The instructions in the updating section say to "create a new version" this is what I frequently do after cloning an item but the problem is since this does not have my kuid number the "create new version" function is greyed out and cannot be used. So what is the way around this?
Cheers,
Bill69
narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
Bill69
Open the item for edit in explorer, make the corrections, up-version the number and build then 'select, drag and drop' into the main CM screen.
Peter
Open the item for edit in explorer, make the corrections, up-version the number and build then 'select, drag and drop' into the main CM screen.
Peter
Hi Peter,
Yes I just thought of that, if it is open for edit I can then use import the new version instead of doing a commit.
It is now error free and is for build 3.5 but it badly needs a new espec and a cab, I guess I can put my own espec in the config file and upload it to the DLS.
Cheers,
Bill
Yes I just thought of that, if it is open for edit I can then use import the new version instead of doing a commit.
It is now error free and is for build 3.5 but it badly needs a new espec and a cab, I guess I can put my own espec in the config file and upload it to the DLS.
Cheers,
Bill
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The original thread starter was answered - the kuid version 127 question.
With all due respect, your 10/9 post had the greatest impact on steering the current thread discussion broadening the topic from the kuid version 127 discussion.
Fair enough
Is this by avoiding circular paths? If not, I would like you to email me the work around.
The lack of standards enforcement in older versions slowed the simulation down due to jet repeatedly mitigating the errors every rendering cycle.
If you are happy with an older version what is the point of your contention? That version will live forever and work the same way, and as you claim, has the same core. Some folks are adapting modern content to older versions.
Have you taken a look at how Train Simulator / Railworks / Steampowered.com operate their consumer interface? The alternative to Trainz is many times more commercialized and profit-seeking.
Which basically consisted only of UTC content, so that is not saying much. UTC broke quite a bit of Trainz SP3 content, I remember just abandoning Trainz SP3 in place. However, I am still using TRS2004 content in TS12, mainly because of the power of CMP. The proto-CMP was something that was basically not very useful in TRS2004.
Granted.
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shaneturner12
Tutorial Creator
One thing I will comment on is regarding the fault checking in newer versions vs the older versions. As far as I'm concerned, it's better to flag up faults at the outset, which the older versions simply ignored, causing massive performance implications in the process. Anything that reduces this performance penalty is a step in the right direction.
Shane
About TRS2004 and going forward.
I know this is steering the thread off topic a bit more, but it needs mentioning.
I joined Trainz with TRS2004 back in December 2003. In fact I got my copy a day or two after Christmas that year. I couldn't wait for it to appear on the shelves then! Anyway... Many people here probably don't remember the awful teething pains we went through with each and every service pack that came out. The passenger edition didn't even ship with passengers. That came along later with SP1 which introduced performance problems and crashes. SP2 fixed some things, but made others worse then it was replaced immediately by SP3 which broke more. In the end, SP4 was the best for that version and even then things weren't resolved. There was still the crashing issues, the stutters, sound issues, etc. Sound familiar, doesn't it? Then the Fury thing hit the fan and TRS2006, and Classics 1&2 was released with the hopes of surviving the implosion. There were some improvements in the game engine, but not a lot. These versions introduced some error reporting, but not to the full extent we have today. And there it sat in limbo while the company fell apart at the seams.
For the most part, what's left of Auran is the just the Trainz group. The rest of the company got disseminated due to the Fury fiasco which killed the company. N3V picked up the pieces of what was TRS2006 and the Classics series, and trudged on using the tools at hand. At that point, they only had one full time developer, and that would be WindWalker. Over the years since, other people have joined in and replaced others. Café is gone, so is Alan Yeomans, and others. James Moody (Bloodknok) joined and a few others since. The new team is trying to improve what we've got, as much as we don't seem to think so, but there have been improvements in the game, tweaks and add-ons, and of course the dreaded fault enforcement which people don't understand fully. As has been stated many, many times here, those faults were always there. All versions of Trainz prior to TRS2006 blindly pushed their way through the errors, ignoring incorrect tags, missing or broken textures, and everything else. This worked somewhat, but things would crash, and crash a lot. Starting with TRS2009 which was really a content developer's edition to help move the company into a new direction. This was followed immediately by TRS2010 which was supposed to be TRS2009 Surveyor's Edition, or something like that. (Does anyone else remember this?), Since then, the versions have become more strict with errors, and enforcing the things that will cause the program to crash. With TS12 the push has been to make everything error free, and that process started, I think a couple of years ago, or maybe quite a bit later. I can't remember the actual start of that or the announcement.
Granted, N3V is not always forthcoming with documentation, but then again what program developer is these days. It would have been nice to know ahead of time about the thumbnail requirements, and tag changes, but documentation is usually the last thing on their mind when it comes to writing software. Without the manpower writing documentation becomes the lowest thing on the list anyway. It's a sad pattern to get into, but it is what it is. In the past, they had the resources to write a Content Creator's Guide. Today, with a Wiki we almost have that but it is a WIP and definitely needs work in process! I've been working with people on the Wiki, though not editing myself, with proofing and testing. There is a lot of stuff up there and a meddle to dig through.
So where does all this bring us to today?
In order to get things to work smoothly and error free, the stuff needs fixing. We are lucky that N3V has allowed the community to finally repair assets. They could have ditched everything prior to version 2.9 and let it all go into the trash. The version 127 error is something that N3V and content creators will have to work out. In the mean time we should earmark those assets for a future visit and move on to other things that can be repaired. There are too many assets to cull over and there's no reason to waste time and energy on those items that can't be fixed.
John
I know this is steering the thread off topic a bit more, but it needs mentioning.
I joined Trainz with TRS2004 back in December 2003. In fact I got my copy a day or two after Christmas that year. I couldn't wait for it to appear on the shelves then! Anyway... Many people here probably don't remember the awful teething pains we went through with each and every service pack that came out. The passenger edition didn't even ship with passengers. That came along later with SP1 which introduced performance problems and crashes. SP2 fixed some things, but made others worse then it was replaced immediately by SP3 which broke more. In the end, SP4 was the best for that version and even then things weren't resolved. There was still the crashing issues, the stutters, sound issues, etc. Sound familiar, doesn't it? Then the Fury thing hit the fan and TRS2006, and Classics 1&2 was released with the hopes of surviving the implosion. There were some improvements in the game engine, but not a lot. These versions introduced some error reporting, but not to the full extent we have today. And there it sat in limbo while the company fell apart at the seams.
For the most part, what's left of Auran is the just the Trainz group. The rest of the company got disseminated due to the Fury fiasco which killed the company. N3V picked up the pieces of what was TRS2006 and the Classics series, and trudged on using the tools at hand. At that point, they only had one full time developer, and that would be WindWalker. Over the years since, other people have joined in and replaced others. Café is gone, so is Alan Yeomans, and others. James Moody (Bloodknok) joined and a few others since. The new team is trying to improve what we've got, as much as we don't seem to think so, but there have been improvements in the game, tweaks and add-ons, and of course the dreaded fault enforcement which people don't understand fully. As has been stated many, many times here, those faults were always there. All versions of Trainz prior to TRS2006 blindly pushed their way through the errors, ignoring incorrect tags, missing or broken textures, and everything else. This worked somewhat, but things would crash, and crash a lot. Starting with TRS2009 which was really a content developer's edition to help move the company into a new direction. This was followed immediately by TRS2010 which was supposed to be TRS2009 Surveyor's Edition, or something like that. (Does anyone else remember this?), Since then, the versions have become more strict with errors, and enforcing the things that will cause the program to crash. With TS12 the push has been to make everything error free, and that process started, I think a couple of years ago, or maybe quite a bit later. I can't remember the actual start of that or the announcement.
Granted, N3V is not always forthcoming with documentation, but then again what program developer is these days. It would have been nice to know ahead of time about the thumbnail requirements, and tag changes, but documentation is usually the last thing on their mind when it comes to writing software. Without the manpower writing documentation becomes the lowest thing on the list anyway. It's a sad pattern to get into, but it is what it is. In the past, they had the resources to write a Content Creator's Guide. Today, with a Wiki we almost have that but it is a WIP and definitely needs work in process! I've been working with people on the Wiki, though not editing myself, with proofing and testing. There is a lot of stuff up there and a meddle to dig through.
So where does all this bring us to today?
In order to get things to work smoothly and error free, the stuff needs fixing. We are lucky that N3V has allowed the community to finally repair assets. They could have ditched everything prior to version 2.9 and let it all go into the trash. The version 127 error is something that N3V and content creators will have to work out. In the mean time we should earmark those assets for a future visit and move on to other things that can be repaired. There are too many assets to cull over and there's no reason to waste time and energy on those items that can't be fixed.
John
As an 'outsider just one observation does the increasing complexity diminish the pool of content creators? Ever increasing complexity I would imagine means less content creators. Blender Game Engine I find easy to use for what I make and gave up on Trainz a long time age...but must admit I mainly made mainly driveable sailing ship, canals and barges 
Hi Barry,
There is not anymore complexity. The details have to be followed exactly, otherwise the program will balk. There are some newer requirements such as LOD meshes for some assets, texture size enforcement, and other tags that have to contain the proper data.
In the old days for example, people would put in a decimal whole number value in a Boolean tag. Boolean means it's either a 1 or 0 and not any other number between 1 and 9 inclusive. It's errors like this that were ignored before, but are now enforced.
In most cases, the fixes take about 2 minutes each if that long. I have gone through and edit all of my local content and removed all the errors. I run content from as old as Trainz 1.3 all the way through the current version. It all depends upon what I want and if the content is suitable.
The only things I can't repair are animated assets. I sadly had to delete some items and have been lucky enough to see newer ones up on the DLS that are either newer versions of the same or improved assets.
Has this held back the asset creation? Not really. I've downloaded plenty of suitable stuff since the newer versions have come out. The only complaint I have is the size of the assets has grown due to the larger textures and more complex meshes.
John
There is not anymore complexity. The details have to be followed exactly, otherwise the program will balk. There are some newer requirements such as LOD meshes for some assets, texture size enforcement, and other tags that have to contain the proper data.
In the old days for example, people would put in a decimal whole number value in a Boolean tag. Boolean means it's either a 1 or 0 and not any other number between 1 and 9 inclusive. It's errors like this that were ignored before, but are now enforced.
In most cases, the fixes take about 2 minutes each if that long. I have gone through and edit all of my local content and removed all the errors. I run content from as old as Trainz 1.3 all the way through the current version. It all depends upon what I want and if the content is suitable.
The only things I can't repair are animated assets. I sadly had to delete some items and have been lucky enough to see newer ones up on the DLS that are either newer versions of the same or improved assets.
Has this held back the asset creation? Not really. I've downloaded plenty of suitable stuff since the newer versions have come out. The only complaint I have is the size of the assets has grown due to the larger textures and more complex meshes.
John
As an 'outsider just one observation does the increasing complexity diminish the pool of content creators? Ever increasing complexity I would imagine means less content creators. Blender Game Engine I find easy to use for what I make and gave up on Trainz a long time age...but must admit I mainly made mainly driveable sailing ship, canals and barges
It was more complicated when we had inconsistent examples to draw from, which led to a complex propagation of errors. Modern examples that use consistent standards eliminates time and frustration, and thereby increases content creation production.