Spanish tragedy.

oldie

New member
Hello everybody, please spare a few moments and put your hands to-gether for the people who died and are injured in yesterdays de-railment in spain, thank you,........
 
Yes, from Spain, I send my sincere condolences to all the families of the deceased and my mood recovery to the wounded.

At this time, there are 78 dead and over 100 injured.

http://www.farodevigo.es/

With great sorrow

Manuel
 
It was apparently going more than twice the speed limit, and there were not auto speed restrictions on the line. The driver has admitted it, and a signal camera video shown on the news does show the chilling image of the train coming off the track at the bend.
 
Something doesn't add up. On these modern trains, is there not an audible warning of an approaching speed limit which the driver has to cancel? If the system wasn't working, or had been isolated on this train, why was the train in service operating at high speeds with passengers on board? I have a suspicion the driver alone isn't to blame, but let's hope the accident investigators get to the bottom of it.

I know when I worked for London Transport (we didn't have AWS, but then the trains travel at much slower speeds) on the underground that there were speed limits that one obeyed and others one treated as "Chinese Writing", but that was why drivers and guards spent four of five days "hiking" along the line.

What a terribly sad tragedy! I feel very sorry for the families of those killed and badly injured. I also feel very sorry for the driver as he will have to live with his conscience and all the "what if's" for the rest of his life.
 
Last edited:
Hi everybody.
Can I first of all post here my sincere condolences to the bereaved families, dependents, and friends of all those killed in this tragedy and also to all those who have been injured who in many cases are facing life changing situations.

However, in a period of little over two weeks two of Europe’s most prestigious rail networks who have safety records second to none have both faced having their passengers killed and maimed on high-speed services. The foregoing must make regular rail commuters wonder whether these two accidents are purely coincidence or are they a product of the financial austerity cuts being made throughout much of Europe particularly as I believe both of these rail operations are state run (perhaps someone can correct that if I am wrong)

In the Spanish tragedy I believe Sterrett makes a valid point when he advises that “something does not add up “as most of this line is under ETCS system control which does not allow the driver to override the central control and train computers especially in the area of speed. That said, the BBC News reports here in Britain are advising that 2 miles prior to the curve on which the train derailed the system switches to ASTA which allows the driver to control the speed of the contist through the curve and on approach to the station.

However, even with that system should the driver exceed the maximum permitted speed on approach to the curve there would have been numerous audible and visual alarms activated by which the driver would have to have manually overridden each one in almost continuous action to have got the train into the curve at the speed it appears to have done.

I for one find it very difficult to believe that this railway employee with over 30 years’ experience and 10 years of driving high-speed units would have deliberately carried out the above action. Again, as Sterrett advises “something does not add up” and I would certainly second that as a regular rail commuter on high-speed services.

Bill
 
Last edited:
A very sad tragedy.
According to the BBC the driver has just been detained by the Spanish Police under charges for recklessness.
 
What a terrible tragedy... it's a good thing my neighbors were already on the plane coming back to the U.S.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi everybody.
The driver of this train has now been arrested on suspicion of reckless driving of this train and the police have also confirmed that he is refusing to answer any questions regarding his role in this accident. If other press and media reports are correct, first examination of the train’s black box recorders has indicated that there were no faults in the braking system or problems with the on-board computers. The black boxes have now been passed to a High Court judge who has been appointed to direct the investigation further and bring legal action against any person(s) thought to be liable.

I still find it difficult to believe that an employee of the railway with over 30 years service, who has risen to become a top ranking driver at the age of 58 should have acted in such a reckless manner, and yet the evidence begins to mount. The photographs on his Facebook page showing the drive units tachograph recording speeds of over 200 km/h on the ASTA controlled sections of the track along with his boasts regarding the speeds he had reached while driving bear witness to the cavalier attitude he adopted to his job responsibilities.

There are also reports that on previous journeys along this track, a number of trains have recorded this driver doing excessive speed by way of their tracking and on-board computer systems, but no action was taken by the line managers above him. We cannot and should not condemn him at this point in time as he has to yet have his day in court (if it should go that far) but if a case is proven against him it could very much be a game changer for the whole rapidly growing European rail passenger industry.

From what I read, the powerful and well organised rail unions throughout Europe have in recent years opposed driverless trains even though the technology is now there to enable it. They have been supported in their campaign by a large number of passenger groups who have advised along with the unions that passengers would not have the confidence to place their lives in the unknown qualities of software systems especially on HST routes. The saying that a human being is the ultimate computer has very much been in the forefront of this campaign. This incident however may well change that thinking among those passenger groups as it may well show that human beings are just as fragile and prone to failure as computers.

If the case of recklessness and manslaughter is proven against this driver many may regard this as not being an accident, for in that someone has to make a genuine mistake. If this case is proven, it may well demonstrate that this was a deliberate human act resulting in over 200 casualties which in no way could be called an accident. I accept that he never intentionally meant for the train to derail on the curve. However, if he did override numerous audible and visual alarms on the approach to the curve he made that inevitable.

I certainly have changed my views on driverless trains following this incident and after a few days holiday I again will be travelling on the 06:40 HST service to London on Tuesday. i will be traveling with other regular commuters on that service and it will be interesting to see if those other regular passengers I always have a conversation with feel the same.

Bill
 
Last edited:
That curve can be easily handled at speeds of 120 km/h or 75 mph.. I don't think it is only the driver's fault, the track there might have been damaged or under repairs or something, the train just doesn't tip over like that. Also, it doesn't actually tip over, it just slides, that's why I think the track broke.

Still, if there was a speed limit in effect, the driver should have been noticed; if he wasn't, it's not his fault, if he was, then it's solely his fault.
 
We cannot and should not condemn him at this point in time as he has to yet have his day in court (if it should go that far) but if a case is proven against him it could very much be a game changer for the whole rapidly growing European rail passenger industry.
Whar a shame you didn't take your own advice and wait for reliable sources of information.
 
Hi amigacooke and everybody.

Whar a shame you didn't take your own advice and wait for reliable sources of information.

Amigacooke, first of all can I apologise for my delayed response to your comment on my earlier posting, but the wife and me have been away enjoying ourselves over the weekend. With regard to your comment on waiting for reliable sources on this terrible disaster, well the main source for my posting came from the driver’s own Facebook page and the comments and photos he placed on that. That source could hardly be unreliable for what was stated on that page he actually had written himself.

My other sources of information was two of Saturday’s broadsheet newspapers, one being the Guardian which I always purchase whenever I buy a newspaper and the other was the independent which I read online while travelling down to Dorset. I do not believe that these two newspapers which are considered by many to be the best quality newspapers in the UK are in the habit of giving unreliable reports.

That said, the reports have now been verified as correct by the fact that the driver has now been charged or is about to be charged with reckless homicide or with a less but equal equivalent to the British manslaughter legislation.

Therefore amigacooke, with the greatest of respect can I suggest that before posting derogatory remarks on the words of others in this forum you first of all put a little more effort into those ill thought out one line postings you are so fond of and also check the spelling.

Bill
 
Therefore amigacooke, with the greatest of respect can I suggest that before posting derogatory remarks on the words of others in this forum you first of all put a little more effort into those ill thought out one line postings you are so fond of and also check the spelling.

Bill
Sorry Bill, you asked that the driver be given his day in court and then proceeded to try him by media. That's why you didn't follow your own advice.
 
Hi amigacooke and everybody.

Amigacooke, I am afraid I have to disagree with your comment that i “proceeded to try him by media”. I merely reported what was being published in two leading British quality newspapers regarding the tragedy and what he had placed on his own Facebook page regarding his driving transgressions. You will notice in my posting I always pre-faced the press reports with “if press and other media reports are correct” or similar, and then went on to quote what had been published in the two newspapers referred to.

In my posting the only section in which I commented on my own thoughts was not regarding the actions of the driver but the actions (or lack of action) of his superiors and in that I concede that forum members may not have been completely aware of what I was stating. The foregoing was regarding the admission by the driver to exceeding speed limits in the past and posted along with photo evidence on his Facebook page.

Modern commercial tracking systems on vehicles are extremely sophisticated and without doubt the GPS system would have detected the train exceeding the speed limits as they occurred, this would then have been corroborated by the trains control on-board computers and recorded on the system. All modern systems either transmit this information immediately to the traffic management personnel or transmit the information on change of driver shift. You then have to ask the question why this information was not acted on by the driver’s superiors at the time of the transgression(s) as if that had been the case this tragedy may well have been averted.

The above is an area I often work in while carrying out my duties in heavy goods vehicle safety and therefore I am sure that the above would be correct. Therefore I believe it is certainly possible that depending on events, it may not have been just a failure on the drivers part (if that is proved to be the case) which led to this tragedy but also perhaps much larger failure in the safety and personnel disciplinary system for which management much higher than the driver may well be responsible.

However, the main purpose of my posting was not in the main to discuss the actions of the driver or others involved with the management of this railway. It was to hopefully start a discussion on whether this incident would begin a rethink on train control systems and in that driverless trains. Sadly as this is now very much an American Trainz members forum concentrating in the main on US railroads and there would seem to be little interest in that subject. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against our America members and their interests but it is sad to see so many long-standing British and European forum members depart the scene to other forums.

Bill.
 
Last edited:

However, the main purpose of my posting was not in the main to discuss the actions of the driver or others involved with the management of this railway. It was to hopefully start a discussion on whether this incident would begin a rethink on train control systems and in that driverless trains.
Perhaps a new thread would have been more appropriate for that interesting discussion?
 
Hi amigacooke
i accept that may well have been a better option, but the debate would still have raised little interest on this forum i feel.

All the best.
Bill
 
Back
Top