Appalled and Dismayed

That is for certain - Someone took my permission approved N&W Passenger Car and just re-lettered and was dumb enough to keep my thumbnail. Did this person get approval from Whitepass and me to do so - NO. Of course, it is Built-In Content so this means an open invitation I presume. No the first time this has happened and surely not the last time. Due to sour apples, to protect the harvest you gotta do what you gotta do. Think this is N3V's thoughts at this stage.
 
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DRM...

At least we don't have to look up the secret phrase somewhere in a manual every time we use the DLC!

Does anyone else remember those days?

I noted that Chris (WW) is looking into some of the suggestions posted here on the DLC. Perhaps in a future version or patch we'll be able to copy for local use, but not upload DLC. This is good news for us, I think.

John
 
JCitron said:
DRM...

At least we don't have to look up the secret phrase somewhere in a manual every time we use the DLC!

Does anyone else remember those days?

I noted that Chris (WW) is looking into some of the suggestions posted here on the DLC. Perhaps in a future version or patch we'll be able to copy for local use, but not upload DLC. This is good news for us, I think.

John
Click to expand...

That would have made far more sense from the beginning.
 
JCitron said:
Yup... But isn't the way a lot of things go around here? ;)

John
Click to expand...

Lol, yeah. Call me cynical, though, but I'd bet money N3V was looking for a reason to implement restrictive DRM and the DLC cloning issue was just the excuse they wanted. I'm basing that on the fact, among other things, that the tools needed to prevent DLC cloning already long existed in the form of the Privileges container.
 
JCitron said:
DRM...

At least we don't have to look up the secret phrase somewhere in a manual every time we use the DLC!

Does anyone else remember those days?

I noted that Chris (WW) is looking into some of the suggestions posted here on the DLC. Perhaps in a future version or patch we'll be able to copy for local use, but not upload DLC. This is good news for us, I think.

John
Click to expand...

I surely do! Looking at silhouettes of aircraft in order to run a Microprose flight sim, or finding a line from the manual to authenticate Frontier Elite 2 when you landed at a base!

The other thing that's sad about all this, is that N3V obviously had the money and programming talent to throw at implementing this DRM and the core changes to accommodate, yet still after all this time can't programme the graphics engine so it draws decent points and crossings by default, sort out spline points 20cm above terrain level or the ghastly tunnel system (amongst many others). So all this locking down (for the payware associates) but it's still the same old Trainz it's running on... :)
 
RRSignal said:
Lol, yeah. Call me cynical, though, but I'd bet money N3V was looking for a reason to implement restrictive DRM and the DLC cloning issue was just the excuse they wanted. I'm basing that on the fact, among other things, that the tools needed to prevent DLC cloning already long existed in the form of the Privileges container.
Click to expand...

You'd lose :)

Payware has been on the cards since '00. The original game was intended to require individually-numbered trains to be purchased similar to how things work in the modelling world. This was probably changed due to the logistics problems involved in distributing mini-CDs to retailers- unless you're someone like Blizzard, that kind of thing just doesn't work. Once we formalised support for third-party content post-release, there was only a brief period of freeware-only content development before creators started asking for payware support. I don't remember the exact dates, but I do know that it was a serious consideration just a few years after the first product release (perhaps in the '04 timeframe.)

We first added explicit support for payware in TS2009 SP3. This service pack introduced the concept of activating individual JA files through separate serial numbers. This was always a stopgap solution; there are practical limits to how many products we can support with this technique and it's not a particularly easy process for developers to build the package or users to install the package. The EXE installers are not cross-platform, and each EXE installer needs its own maintenance and patches. They also do nothing to discourage piracy, and can't be purchased/installed without leaving the game environment.

We first added in-game payware in Trainz Simulator iPad. This introduced the ability to purchase and activate content within the game, but wasn't yet ready for third-party payware content. The iOS platform has some significant differences to how things are done on the PC, so it's not a simple matter of taking some PC-developed payware content and bundling it up for distribution. There are also differences in user expectations between the Windows version and our iOS user-base.

Finally, TS12 SP1 adds the ability to install third-party DLC. Instead of bundling individual items into large JA files with an EXE installer and a serial key, or instead of distributing payware as simple unprotected CDP content archives, we can now deliver third-party payware content directly to the end-user. This gives us a lot of options, and hopefully will give our affiliated third-party content creators a lot of opportunities. There's still a fair bit of work involved on our end to QA and package the individual items, but we're in a lot better position than we were when everything was a JA file.


In terms of the privileges container, I shouldn't need to point out that anybody with a text editor can overcome that "protection".

kind regards,

chris
 
WindWalkr said:
Oh, they're big pretty much everywhere. That's not to say that there are not other alternatives, some of which we directly support. Like them or loathe them, but you have to admit that they have a large and successful market.




Right at the moment, I believe you can:
* View the payware route in Surveyor.
* View the payware sessions in Surveyor.
* Create your own sessions, which allows the modification of pretty much everything except the terrain itself.




It's a good thought, and is an area that we're constantly evaluating. We obviously want to make things as flexible as possible as long as it doesn't undo the fundamental protections offered to the creator. (Those being: that the content will have the best chance of actually working on a given client install, and that the content is not trivial to redistribute.)

kind regards,

chris
Click to expand...

Thanks Chris for the straight to the point reply! That should clear some issues and concerns up.

Regards.
CaptEngland.
 
WindWalkr said:
The original game was intended to require individually-numbered trains to be purchased similar to how things work in the modelling world.
Click to expand...

Sounds a bit like WoT or ElDavo's Railway Emporium though I wouldn't know from experience (I'd never install Gatekeeper even if the product was free!)

We first added explicit support for payware in TS2009 SP3. This service pack introduced the concept of activating individual JA files through separate serial numbers. This was always a stopgap solution; there are practical limits to how many products we can support with this technique and it's not a particularly easy process for developers to build the package or users to install the package. The EXE installers are not cross-platform, and each EXE installer needs its own maintenance and patches. They also do nothing to discourage piracy, and can't be purchased/installed without leaving the game environment.

We first added in-game payware in Trainz Simulator iPad. This introduced the ability to purchase and activate content within the game, but wasn't yet ready for third-party payware content. The iOS platform has some significant differences to how things are done on the PC, so it's not a simple matter of taking some PC-developed payware content and bundling it up for distribution. There are also differences in user expectations between the Windows version and our iOS user-base.

Finally, TS12 SP1 adds the ability to install third-party DLC. Instead of bundling individual items into large JA files with an EXE installer and a serial key, or instead of distributing payware as simple unprotected CDP content archives, we can now deliver third-party payware content directly to the end-user. This gives us a lot of options, and hopefully will give our affiliated third-party content creators a lot of opportunities. There's still a fair bit of work involved on our end to QA and package the individual items, but we're in a lot better position than we were when everything was a JA file.

In terms of the privileges container, I shouldn't need to point out that anybody with a text editor can overcome that "protection".
Click to expand...

Rather than pick this apart and ask what fundamentally is really wrong with JA files or other methods, it's probably more useful to simple restate the problem from a user's perspective: I want, I NEED the program and the content I purchase to operate as it did when I purchased it. Which means I need to be able to locally back up my content without reauthorization. I also need to be able to use my DLC in my offline installation as I was able to before. I purchased the DLC on that condition, and nowhere in N3V's ads was it stated that I needed an internet connection - ever - to be able to use my purchases (and, yes, I've archived some.) Lastly, and while I personally don't care about this, I realize some people might, but one might need the ability to open and edit the content the purchased, which they were able to before, and which may have been a condition of purchase for others.

I really couldn't care less about the delivery system, as long as it does what I need it to, and as long the content worked before or at the time of purchase in the manner advertised or that I had reasonably come to expect.
 
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The only game I have is Trainz so I've no experience of DRM. I certainly wouldn't buy anything that didn't give me exclusive right to it's use. I never patch anything when first released, in my view if it ain't broke don't fix it. This notion has always proved to be the best choice. At present I have multiple versions of TS2010 & TS12 and now a new fresh install of TS12 fully patched.with SP1 and HF1&2 containg just my DLC I have backed this entire directory to an external USB3 drive.
Now a few questions
Will my old TS12 sp0 with all my DLC and plenty of other Payware still work without an Internet connection or does it need N3V verification in any way.
Will the locos that will be issued with the new Rail Sim release be usable with any other route whether it be my own or built in route.
Does the new SP1 version need verification or just the DLCs and if that verification is not obtained will just the DLCs not work or will SP1 grind to a halt.
Will it be possible to have multiple copies of TS12 SP1 in future.
Marias pass route is not DLC so in future will there still be any DLC routes. Rail Sim and Sirgibby are the only route builders I am aware of that are still issuing their routes through N3V.
I have tried to stay with this thread but all it has done is to pose more questions for me than it has answered.

Ken
 
RRSignal said:
Sounds a bit like WoT or BRTrainz, though I wouldn't know from experience (I'd never install Gatekeeper even if the product was free!)

There has never been any form of DRM on my releases.

For the record, if N3V's current system can be evolved to allow the purchaser freedom to modify it as they wish for personal use whilst making it difficult to redistribute, then I would certainly consider it.

Regards,

Anthony
Click to expand...
 
KenGreen said:
The only game I have is Trainz so I've no experience of DRM. I certainly wouldn't buy anything that didn't give me exclusive right to it's use. I never patch anything when first released, in my view if it ain't broke don't fix it. This notion has always proved to be the best choice. At present I have multiple versions of TS2010 & TS12 and now a new fresh install of TS12 fully patched.with SP1 and HF1&2 containg just my DLC I have backed this entire directory to an external USB3 drive.
Now a few questions
Will my old TS12 sp0 with all my DLC and plenty of other Payware still work without an Internet connection or does it need N3V verification in any way.
Will the locos that will be issued with the new Rail Sim release be usable with any other route whether it be my own or built in route.
Does the new SP1 version need verification or just the DLCs and if that verification is not obtained will just the DLCs not work or will SP1 grind to a halt.
Will it be possible to have multiple copies of TS12 SP1 in future.
Marias pass route is not DLC so in future will there still be any DLC routes. Rail Sim and Sirgibby are the only route builders I am aware of that are still issuing their routes through N3V.
I have tried to stay with this thread but all it has done is to pose more questions for me than it has answered.

Ken
Click to expand...

Chris (Windwalkr) clarified a little of this in another thread. First, and I'd appreciate a confirmation from N3V, but I believe the DRM only applies to SP1 and later; pre-SP1 should not be affected. I have run TS12 no-SP for quite some time offline with no problems. Second, Chris confirmed that the DRM, for now, only concerns payware DLC. This is just my personal opinion, but I don't see how it WON'T be extended to the game itself at some point - after all, they're going to an awful lot of time and expense to set up the necessary infrastructure and servers, and just requiring DRM for DLC seems like a good way to beta-test a larger DRM system - but, for now, the game itself does not require periodic check-in. Previous official posts leave open that possibility. Third, I tested Maria's Pass X last night and it failed to install into TS12 SP1 as did Modula City and Cabon City Classic (CCC was purchased direct from Trainzland, not through N3V.) However, in fairness, none of these were particularly smooth pre-SP1 for me either.

I don't know about being able to handle multiple installs, and I have asked Chris how Trainz will work for those of us who purchased DLC before the DRM was implemented (I, for one, would not have purchased the DLC if I knew someday it would require online authentication, and, having saved the ads, I can see that authentication wasn't listed as a requirement at the time of purchase).
 
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RRSignal said:
.. simple restate the problem from a user's perspective: I want, I NEED the program and the content I purchase to operate as it did when I purchased it.
Click to expand...

Then don't patch. That will preserve things exactly as they were. There won't be any improvements, but there won't be any other changes either.

chris
 
WindWalkr said:
Then don't patch. That will preserve things exactly as they were. There won't be any improvements, but there won't be any other changes either.

chris
Click to expand...

That is a great suggestion, and is what I have done. Reading these complaints, and problems post patch, I have to laugh, because I haven't really found any "improvements" mentioned that seem worth the hassle of dealing with the patch, and the hotfixes, and the issues some people have been posting about since the patch was released. It's not broke, and I'm not fixing it till it breaks.
 
I've installed Maria's Pass and it's update into an SP1 installation without problems, twice in fact. The only issue was the update obsoleting a lot of stuff so I had some cleaning up to do, but no big deal.
 
boc61 said:
I've installed Maria's Pass and it's update into an SP1 installation without problems, twice in fact. The only issue was the update obsoleting a lot of stuff so I had some cleaning up to do, but no big deal.
Click to expand...

Same here with no problems either. Their trees have a lot to be desired and affect the framerates because they're flipboards, but the route runs just as well as it did before with the same stutters as they load up. HP-Trainz does have an updated version available which I have to look into when I get a chance.

As far as improvements over the pre-SP1 go, I do enjoy the now fixed merging function. This has changed tremendously from the previous versions as well particularly with the ability to click on the existing map in the merge window. This allows moving along rather than just scrolling little arrow things. The merging in map though still requires the mouse clicking, but that's okay as it needs to be positioned, but the ability to scroll along the accepting map is a plus.

The lighting seems better and so does the rendering of the speed trees assets, although there is still the pop-up effect, which can be annoying. The hard-coding of the common Trainzoptions.txt functions is a no brainer as well as the color-coding of the routes in the routes menu is a plus. There are a lot of other subtle things that are pleasantly there that I can't recall at the moment.

John
 
Whilst I don't agree with always online DRM, I find eldavo s locksmith serial key protection fair. If I'd spent as much as he does making an asset, I wouldn't want people running around giving it to each other free. Plus you only have to install the license key once as a .cdp file, you don't even have to type one in. How much easier do you want it? But to be fair RRsignal, I want to be able to edit something I'd paid upwards of £15 for, hot having to have Auran authenticate every time.
 
WindWalkr said:
Then don't patch. That will preserve things exactly as they were. There won't be any improvements, but there won't be any other changes either.

chris
Click to expand...

Why shouldn't I get bugfixes?

Seems this new DRM should have been implemented with the next version of Trainz, not an existing version of the product.
 
RRSignal said:
Why shouldn't I get bugfixes?

Seems this new DRM should have been implemented with the next version of Trainz, not an existing version of the product.
Click to expand...

I know it doesn't affect me as a 2010 user, but I find I have to agree with RRSignal on this point.
If a version release is faulty & needs updates for it to run as originally intended, the fixes (patches) should not also include something
that the original purchased version did not include, and DRM was not included in the description of what was being purchased with TS12.
 
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