Appalled and Dismayed

Why shouldn't I get bugfixes?

Seems this new DRM should have been implemented with the next version of Trainz, not an existing version of the product.

I have to agree with this. Obviously many people don't agree with DRM. They bought TS12 without it. They should be able to have a fully functional and updated version as long as it's still called TS 12. A DRM enable version should be a different version, even if it's just rebranded like "Trainz 12 Online" or something like that. This whole idea has been implemented very poorly in my opinion in both procedure and communication. I think some serious damage control may be in order. It's one thing to update and add features to an existing product, but this is more of a business and philosophical change and should not be done mid stream as it were.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
 
I have to agree with this. Obviously many people don't agree with DRM. They bought TS12 without it. They should be able to have a fully functional and updated version as long as it's still called TS 12.

Simply put, the patch is free, you are not paying for it, and you are free to use it or not as you wish. We think that the patch is an improvement over TS12 in every way, and we think that the majority of people will agree with us, but if your own experience or perspective leads you to believe that TS12 is better unpatched then you are free to continue to use it unpatched.

kind regards,

chris
 
Simply put, the patch is free, you are not paying for it, and you are free to use it or not as you wish. We think that the patch is an improvement over TS12 in every way, and we think that the majority of people will agree with us, but if your own experience or perspective leads you to believe that TS12 is better unpatched then you are free to continue to use it unpatched.

Since I doubt you, Gareth, Tony, etc. work for free, we are paying for it; it's built in the price of the product. Also, the purpose of the patch is to repair manufacturer defects e.g. merge and spline bugs, etc. So, you are providing us what we paid for but didn't get originally.
 
G'day All, I have installed TS12 SP1 HF1-3 as a clean install and remain open minded at this point, but I can see that this is the thin edge of the wedge to go the way of railjerks and take control of the game and assets you paid for and putting in this DRM is just like multiplayer was in TS10.......a test ground for the next version at the users expense. We should be able to get the fixes without doing N3V's beta testing for them.
Regards
Barrie
 
..we are paying for it; it's built in the price of the product.

Seeing as we have the option of NOT providing any patches, this is not entirely true. It would be reasonable to say that some amount of support is built into the product pricing, and it's also reasonable to say that this was expended early in the life of TS12 when we released a number of patches for issues that we deemed critical to the usability of the product. SP1 goes far beyond that, and is definitely in the realm of "we're releasing this free because we can."

chris
 
Seeing as we have the option of NOT providing any patches, this is not entirely true. It would be reasonable to say that some amount of support is built into the product pricing, and it's also reasonable to say that this was expended early in the life of TS12 when we released a number of patches for issues that we deemed critical to the usability of the product. SP1 goes far beyond that, and is definitely in the realm of "we're releasing this free because we can."

chris
It only goes well beyond that because of the additional things which have nothing to do with fixing existing faults in the game. It is quite obvious N3V will never fix trainz to an acceptable level with the base needs of the game.
I have come through from UTC to TS12 and have purchased all of the DLC addons.
But the current N3V attitude leaves me floored and disappointed.
 
Seeing as we have the option of NOT providing any patches, this is not entirely true. It would be reasonable to say that some amount of support is built into the product pricing, and it's also reasonable to say that this was expended early in the life of TS12 when we released a number of patches for issues that we deemed critical to the usability of the product. SP1 goes far beyond that, and is definitely in the realm of "we're releasing this free because we can."

Again, you have the option of not providing patches. You DO NOT have the option of marketing and advertising a product that does not do what you claim it to. Your alternative to patching was to do the job right in the first place. Seems to be an ongoing theme here, as numerous other users have complained about this over the years here.

As for patching issues that "deemed critical to the usability of the product", that's rather subjective. I'll wager the many users who have complained about the faulty merging issue, as well as the ongoing spline faults, might disagree. As for expending the support early in the life of the product, assuming that were even remotely true, that falls into the category of "bad budgeting", or, as the saying goes, "a lack of proper planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part." It is interesting to note that such negligence seems to be a repeating theme on N3V's part here.



(BTW, on a side note, if you want to 'improve' the game, how about removing the DRM so we can always run the game offline, even with DLC? That'll do far more to improve the game than any of the non-essential 'improvements' N3V has offered up so far.)
 
As for patching issues that "deemed critical to the usability of the product", that's rather subjective.

It is, which is why the rest of your statement has no teeth. Put simply, N3V does not agree that the product is substantially flawed as you are attempting to promote. All software has bugs. Everything (software or otherwise) has limitations. We identified those bugs that we consider serious to the usability of the product and fixed them within weeks of the product's initial release.

kind regards,

chris
 
It is, which is why the rest of your statement has no teeth. Put simply, N3V does not agree that the product is substantially flawed as you are attempting to promote. All software has bugs. Everything (software or otherwise) has limitations. We identified those bugs that we consider serious to the usability of the product and fixed them within weeks of the product's initial release.

Actually, that's exactly what gives it teeth: That these flaws are serious and affect the usability of the game for some, if not many. And, moreover, that this product was sold with the expectation that these features would work. You identified and fixed what you felt like identifying and fixing early on; it was nowhere near complete. And users complained for years about some of the serious bugs you chose not to fix because N3V let fixes languish some two years since the release of the original program. Only recently did N3V decide to address them (and it took how many tries since the Service Pack???) and it just so happens you decided to address them at the same time you chose to implement a new DRM system. My, what a coincidence...

This is definitely not indicative of an ethical operation.
 
And the new DLC system doesn't work anyway with an admission by N3V in this thread - http://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...-of-this-garbage-all-the-time-from-DLC-server - they have no idea when the DLC looping download will be fixed.

If such a fundamental error exists then a. What sort of beta testing actually took place around this element? b. If it wasn't working correctly why was it still forced through in the SP1? Finally, c, if it is so faulty then would suggest re-issue SP1 patch minus the DLC element and put that on the back burner to TS14 or whatever/if the next full version will be.

As regards staying with 49922 as myself and many others are doing, that is all well and good but as we have already seen the next wonderful must have DLC Potteries Loop Line is only for those running SP1 and above, so how long before other features are progressively withdrawn from pre SP1 TS12 users to force adoption of the latest version?

At the risk of repeating myself, all this would be great if we had a super duper new Cry Engine 3 style graphics engine, but it's still the same old Trainz. Shonky looking points and crossings with padlocks visible above them while driving, glorified free roam when driving, unrealistic braking systems/toy train physics, loco's which don't even consume fuel etc. etc.
 
And the new DLC system doesn't work anyway with an admission by N3V in this thread - http://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...-of-this-garbage-all-the-time-from-DLC-server - they have no idea when the DLC looping download will be fixed.

If such a fundamental error exists then a. What sort of beta testing actually took place around this element? b. If it wasn't working correctly why was it still forced through in the SP1? Finally, c, if it is so faulty then would suggest re-issue SP1 patch minus the DLC element and put that on the back burner to TS14 or whatever/if the next full version will be.

As regards staying with 49922 as myself and many others are doing, that is all well and good but as we have already seen the next wonderful must have DLC Potteries Loop Line is only for those running SP1 and above, so how long before other features are progressively withdrawn from pre SP1 TS12 users to force adoption of the latest version?

At the risk of repeating myself, all this would be great if we had a super duper new Cry Engine 3 style graphics engine, but it's still the same old Trainz. Shonky looking points and crossings with padlocks visible above them while driving, glorified free roam when driving, unrealistic braking systems/toy train physics, loco's which don't even consume fuel etc. etc.

I think if new content is restricted to SP1 users, people just won't download it, and if it really gets to be a problem, will drift away from TS12 altogether.
 
As above, N3V disagrees with this statement.

chris

Sorry Chris, but the merge issue WAS a major issue. Why do you think the issue of routes to include into the EE edition (if that was the version that changed into TS12?) fell flat on it's face from the online (this forum) community?

I will speak for most route builders that when routes are made, if you have a small team going to build a route, you devide it up into small areas so that each member can build their assigned part, and then MERGE all routes together? (IIRC, the ECML was made this way, for example?).

Without a working merge command, this was a major bug that should not of taken 2 years to sort out. Surely, this should of been a hot fix? :confused:

Regards.
CaptEngland
 
WindWalkr
Listen to your customers for chrissakes. We know N3V dis-agrees with us, but we are the customer. Remember "The customer is always right, even when they're wrong."
 
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