Zeldaboy14
Owner of ZPW.
I have a question. What is the Yesterdayz Trainz Group anyway?
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Yesterdayz Trainz Group
- Thread starter LWVRR
- Start date
Ahhh! That 'splains why when creating an asset in CM it skipped the one it'd given me, (assumed, I didn't record it. I was more focused on what I needed to understand for that Batch Peter wrote.
Guess I should have understood he was gonna write it for me. (whiney voice: Gosh, Mrs. Jenkins, I didn't mean to cheat! Honest!) // F
Jan!
Just what are you doing with this, is there someway we can help? What's been put up on the DLS, what's not. I just stumbled over one interim .cdp of this last night and chose not to load it--yet! I'm actively searching out missing assets for too many routes to risk adding more to the TO-DO list... but plan on looking at it soonish (i.e. by June). Depends on time available and what I get done, when, on the Wikibook compositions and FRAPS clips tutorials. // F
To answer your question, Jan and I are working on this project at another site.
Thanks for the clarification. We miss you. // Frank
Believe me...I'm one person that nobody here misses, that's for sure!
My plains are to finish the Laurel Line Project by the end of the year. Now that I've been laid off from work I have plenty of down time to work on it. :clap:
Don't mean to be disagreeable, but while I know you made something of a fuss, and even got nasty enough on occasion to be banned for a bit, I also suspect you had some supporters who weren't quite willing to step forward publically. Know there are many who keep quiet based on the number of supportive and approving emails and PMs I got when I went Ranting on the lack of CM and Surveyor improvements, and the other issues such as the DLS, comments, and the staggering and pausing in TS12 -- all when I got, shall we say, loquaciousness attacks.
So whether you made a fool of yourself, a PITA, or just went off--things aren't likely to be all that bad. Good Luck! // Frank
This is a cut and paste of an email, about just one part of a Project what we in Yz-Tz call 'The Antracite Route' -- ironically a project suggested by Scott G (LVWRR) of the posts just above. It's a very large project, but amenable to be done in modular sections centered on various yards and stretches of mixed industries and trackage. In the fullest sense, it could involve many major Eastern US Class I railroad companies, as it's centered on the Wyoming Valley (Scranton-Wilkes-Barre corridor) along the the Lackawanna and North forks of Susquehanna Rivers. This particular stretch needs some thinking, but was instrumental in the nineteenth century industrial development of the Industries of the Northern US from the 1830s and so I initiated a question to narrowguage with his vast NG experience... the balance is an interleaved response to his reply. // Frank
This is conversation about the Anthracite Route still on the back burner, but an interesting stretch of it for over a century.) I'll see if I can get it onto our web board or at least duplicate it on the Yz-Tz forum thread sometime later tonight--right now yard work demands my attentions. It's got too many pics now to make it happen on our forum, and the zip has even more. Expand that before reading much of the below. There are likely other pics left on BING images... my IE got sulky whilst downloading those, so I stopped shopping for more. I think I need more memory and had too many things open.
Search used: BING>Images then '"Ashley Planes;Ashley, PA"' (IIRC!
) with the paired (inside) double quotes as shown in another browser.
The head had to be on the north side of the deep cutting 'Solomon Gap', so find Sterling St. on Google Earth or Maps in North Mountain Top, PA just outside the deep cutting called Solomon Gap. The standard track, we infer given gradients and line-of-site and other such physical factors, ran as is the current road bed down from near that crossing (see the terrain at N lat: 41.179044,-75.882550 W-lon, [many maps programs will accept that just as its given]), probably on what is now S. Lehigh St. and thereafter the cable railway went down the gorge to Rt-309's left (I'm rotated as I view it, but generally west of the road's bed--note the stream on the topo map in the zip and the above CNJ guide/elevation Map. I've better topos than included in the zip but this description and GoogleEarth view will suffice for now) John and I suspect the upper part might be where the PA RT309 road bed grade crossing is located (Lehigh St. extending down S. Lehigh St.).
(Continues, love that 10k limit... NOT!)
This is conversation about the Anthracite Route still on the back burner, but an interesting stretch of it for over a century.) I'll see if I can get it onto our web board or at least duplicate it on the Yz-Tz forum thread sometime later tonight--right now yard work demands my attentions. It's got too many pics now to make it happen on our forum, and the zip has even more. Expand that before reading much of the below. There are likely other pics left on BING images... my IE got sulky whilst downloading those, so I stopped shopping for more. I think I need more memory and had too many things open.
Search used: BING>Images then '"Ashley Planes;Ashley, PA"' (IIRC!
Re: LOL - Thanks, belatedly (This was a PM, before this became an email, or this post!)
This is such a neat bit of RR technology and history I thought I'd take the opportunity to share with you all. (I tried to vett it against the Yz-Tz membership list) It is also of of, Nay, T'was even directly part of one pair of mainlines in the Anthracite region. My laptop died and I needed to put the email list up in the cloud anyway so when replying to Peter (narrowgauge) I thought I'd CC for the mailing list as well. We need to re-enervate our BB, so I'll try to get a with pics version there later.
This is such a neat bit of RR technology and history I thought I'd take the opportunity to share with you all. (I tried to vett it against the Yz-Tz membership list) It is also of of, Nay, T'was even directly part of one pair of mainlines in the Anthracite region. My laptop died and I needed to put the email list up in the cloud anyway so when replying to Peter (narrowgauge) I thought I'd CC for the mailing list as well. We need to re-enervate our BB, so I'll try to get a with pics version there later.
This started Via forum's PM with Andi06 on our mutual concerns, and CC's to a few others, narrowgauge, being one -- (Full PM copy is--off topic here)
So topic begins: (Interleaved, my answers in different font)
On that Peter, meant to ask you last week. Take a look at the Ashley Planes inclined RR and let me know whether you think it possible to model in Trainz, and whether that would interest you. I know it's not NG, but it's a worthy challenge, I think. See also the LH&S parent company for additional historical focus. The Ashley Planes is central to the 'starting section' we may do (Mountain Top yard to Duryea yard) for the Yz-Tz Anthracite Route project.
I guess you're up early as I'm just noticing how I'm up late! // Frank
(I've attached full size pics in the zip folders, so don't get eye strain looking at these! -- F.)
Frank [Forum readers, email me at gmail, and I'll forward the zip back, but the search given above the first pic will do to give the nearly same knowledge base]
Narrowgauge/Peter says;
The description does not really answer questions I would as so I'll make some guesses.
1 There were three separate planes all with the down slope facing in the same direction.
Me in my font says:
As we've scoped it out, generally yes and not exactly same directions--but this will depend on further historical research, from a variety of things read, think of a combined ski lift and roller coaster--and consider the
LH&S's designers much longer experience with the Mauch Chunk Switchback Railway. The image below offers some perspective, and from the CNJ map with elevations, we see it changes direction in various incline stretches. Gravity Tracks and some cable road also curve a bit. We know from researching that at least two of the LH&S principals, and especially the designer were the same guy and his ('once' younger) side-kick/partner, who managed LC&N into the 1870s. I find it likely that his retirement gave rise to CNJ's leasing of the LH&S operations--which they did ever since, and may still do as leasers/a holding company. (Some of the many more images here on the earlier switchback RR they also engineered, designed and built while also envisioning then constructing the Lehigh Canal in the 1820s will give you additional technical insights.)
So topic begins: (Interleaved, my answers in different font)
On that Peter, meant to ask you last week. Take a look at the Ashley Planes inclined RR and let me know whether you think it possible to model in Trainz, and whether that would interest you. I know it's not NG, but it's a worthy challenge, I think. See also the LH&S parent company for additional historical focus. The Ashley Planes is central to the 'starting section' we may do (Mountain Top yard to Duryea yard) for the Yz-Tz Anthracite Route project.
I guess you're up early as I'm just noticing how I'm up late! // Frank
(I've attached full size pics in the zip folders, so don't get eye strain looking at these! -- F.)
Frank [Forum readers, email me at gmail, and I'll forward the zip back, but the search given above the first pic will do to give the nearly same knowledge base]
Narrowgauge/Peter says;
The description does not really answer questions I would as so I'll make some guesses.
1 There were three separate planes all with the down slope facing in the same direction.
Me in my font says:
As we've scoped it out, generally yes and not exactly same directions--but this will depend on further historical research, from a variety of things read, think of a combined ski lift and roller coaster--and consider the
LH&S's designers much longer experience with the Mauch Chunk Switchback Railway. The image below offers some perspective, and from the CNJ map with elevations, we see it changes direction in various incline stretches. Gravity Tracks and some cable road also curve a bit. We know from researching that at least two of the LH&S principals, and especially the designer were the same guy and his ('once' younger) side-kick/partner, who managed LC&N into the 1870s. I find it likely that his retirement gave rise to CNJ's leasing of the LH&S operations--which they did ever since, and may still do as leasers/a holding company. (Some of the many more images here on the earlier switchback RR they also engineered, designed and built while also envisioning then constructing the Lehigh Canal in the 1820s will give you additional technical insights.)
The head had to be on the north side of the deep cutting 'Solomon Gap', so find Sterling St. on Google Earth or Maps in North Mountain Top, PA just outside the deep cutting called Solomon Gap. The standard track, we infer given gradients and line-of-site and other such physical factors, ran as is the current road bed down from near that crossing (see the terrain at N lat: 41.179044,-75.882550 W-lon, [many maps programs will accept that just as its given]), probably on what is now S. Lehigh St. and thereafter the cable railway went down the gorge to Rt-309's left (I'm rotated as I view it, but generally west of the road's bed--note the stream on the topo map in the zip and the above CNJ guide/elevation Map. I've better topos than included in the zip but this description and GoogleEarth view will suffice for now) John and I suspect the upper part might be where the PA RT309 road bed grade crossing is located (Lehigh St. extending down S. Lehigh St.).
Yz-Tz Anthracite Route Project--Ashley Planes stretch (Part II)
Part II, hope I balanced the cut right-- don't want a part III! Ooops, no choice...
See the zip of images attached, the reason the email makes sense. The "Barney's were the pusher carts. The miles is only about 2.5 to 3 with a max grade of 14.5% per the one document, though the other two inclines still operated at automobile traffic gradients. 9% is a steep driveway forsooth, and driving those Pennsylvania roads with John, even an 8% grade is taxing on a vehicle. Does say why the trucking industry became so ascendant in the region after the 1950s--trucks aren't limited by such grades, nor to tracks so were more flexible as transport of goods.
2 The planes must be straight, managing cable control around corners is not easy.
(Mostly agree, but--see that sweeping curve down below--this is the middle incline's bottom stretch)
3 I guess that multi-car loads were common probably hauled by a 'gripper car' (BARNEY's) controlled by a "driver".
PHOTOS suggest to me there was an operator (and/or team) at top and bottom w/o a local Driver--much as ski lifts today, kill buttons, alarms, etc. both top and bottom. Someone would have put any drivers inside the many camera views otherwise. Photographers who aren't railfans tend to focus on people, not things. (<G>)
Using a gripper car would mean that each train can be connected without a fixed connection point in the cable run. (No, seem to have been two Barneys per plane, six overall, with three heads, foots, engine houses, et. al. ... but also fixed locations. Likely, I reason, they might have used the Barney's to do fine tensioning on the wires--notice the couple views with a circular drum/pulley contraption on their carriage upper sides parallel to the ground + track. A big Crank and winch, I wager. The extra cable weight might have been a good thing too. Gut, haven't run any analysis per se.
Keep in mind the down runs was shaped as what my Pa might have called a 'dipsy-doodle' (roller-coaster) finish-- the end parts of each track, even going up the hill had a built in HUMP section if you think about it--staging for the next up section. See the pic showing the passing sidings at Main St. --so was not all double tracked nor single. We'll have to see if the University of Pennsylvania has better detailed information before modeling this.
Fixed connections could make life difficult when the cable runs around the drive wheel or loops over support rollers. (Do you think!)
(Yeah, but this was designed in Early Victorian Daze and with attitudes to match. Keep in mind also, this stretch was the single biggest terrain obstacle to overcome in the PA Government's 1830s' goal of connecting the Delaware River to the Northern Anthracite fields, and both to Pittsburgh (and west beyond the Ohio Country to the Great Lake states, esp. Chicago and Minnesota markets). The Pennsylvania Canal act began the process, but can't say how involved the LC&N's management were in the political push. They were certainly the BILL GATES of their day. (Whether they'd been contemplating extending the canal, and a rail spur before the act hardly matters now!) At the same time the AP and the 15+ miles of track south from there (That ruler line is the far side red line seen on the above GoogleEarth marked up screenshot--where they don't quite connect is the Solomon Gap. The second line started at the first junction south of the Gap through the Mountain Top Yards, thence down the mainline(s) [LVRR built just up slope and above all the way to the gorge]) to White Haven was under construction, the parent LC&N was busily extending the Lehigh Canal up to White Haven via the steep sided Lehigh Gorge to haul coal out as part of an overall strategy--at least partially funded and pushed by the Pennsylvania Government. The Blue Ridge escarpment (Blue Mountain, Pennsylvania) meant every other RR path had to dogleg 80-90 miles nearly to Harrisburg in the Susquehanna Valley (See the map I just now marked up and inserted. The strategic position of the Ashley Planes is obvious given the distances!) before they could turn north in the earliest low powered traction era. Later locomotive improvements allowed opening up some of the other water gaps in the escarpment one by one, but this was also pre-dynamite and pre-earth movers. Navvys were generally Irish Immigrants worked near to death or beyond to make the cuttings through the very tough terrain...
Eventually, with more and more powerful traction developed, other routes made some intermediate-Significant inroads into interior mountain valleys through other water gaps -- notably the PRR and famous Philadelphia & Reading (Reading RR in the board game monopoly!), but by and large, from the 1830s-late-1870s this was the only direct route and could charge what the traffic would bear, or ruthlessly lower prices to pinch out competition. Hence it sits as the 'hypotenuse route' more or less direct down to the many Eastern Seaboard cities thirsting for Anthracite for heat and industry alike.
The limited power of early Locomotives had much to do with it's design and funding, as did the corporate experience (of the parent Company's engineering staff). They'd founded the nation's second oldest RR between Summit Hill-Mauch Chunk on the Lehigh Canal and operated it for years since 1818--1820. Converting it to a Cable road was good practice for this project, and they already owned and operated the Lehigh Canal. (The LH&S 'Southern Division' got surveyed early on, but never thinking like a rail company, was not established until over a decade later--lucrative passenger traffic wasn't on the corporate radar! Their business focus was Anthracite! Eventually, they did extend a standard RR down to Easton, PA, but there still didn't think of passengers much. It took the Lehigh Valley challenge for that, and they soon after ceded their interests to the CNJ.)
4 I guess that the gripper car would be positioned at an assembly point and the cars ro be hauled would be pushed up to it and coupled. The routine at the other end would be much the reverse, the gripper car would release the cable, uncoupled from the load and manually switched across to a waiting siding ready to be pushed to the 'take up point' for the next load.
(How about using the third dimension!) Good thinking but we were both wrong on that--still unclear to me how one Barney goes and hides, and the other takes the next stage, or even how they were gotten out of the way on the down trip, as it seems clear [as I write that, I no longer know WHERE and WHY it's such a strong belief--a web page read last summer, no doubt!] the Barney's were ALWAYS placed BELOW the cuts (up or down) ALWAYS... no hitches that could bear that kind of weight if above, nor would hitched cars have good torque resistance at inflection points... to my calibrated engineering eye either!
(Continued in Part III)
Part II, hope I balanced the cut right-- don't want a part III! Ooops, no choice...
The pictures I've seen show mostly straight runs, though some curves are seen in photos -- possible because the cable pulleys allowed it set in between the sleepers at intervals, and much as a modern ski lift system allows it. The cable winches and drums are pretty much what you see on ski lifts and cable cars for that fact, but low to the ground (a pic)--the pusher carts (Barneys) likely pass right under them from the one view. (Correcting... Actually, re-examination of CNJ Ashley Planes Cable Drum.jpg leads me to think the Barney's went somewhere else--this looks more like a prime mover winch geared underground from the engine house and perhaps part of a step-down transmission--there's no track for the Barneys in view and the turns are far too tight, hence a two stage winch with a continuous cable... might be in play. I interpret the tower like structure as a tensioning weight in well system given the standing up pulley direction and postion. The tower would be to crane up a deadweight to adjust it or service [grease slides?] it occasionally.)
See the zip of images attached, the reason the email makes sense. The "Barney's were the pusher carts. The miles is only about 2.5 to 3 with a max grade of 14.5% per the one document, though the other two inclines still operated at automobile traffic gradients. 9% is a steep driveway forsooth, and driving those Pennsylvania roads with John, even an 8% grade is taxing on a vehicle. Does say why the trucking industry became so ascendant in the region after the 1950s--trucks aren't limited by such grades, nor to tracks so were more flexible as transport of goods.
2 The planes must be straight, managing cable control around corners is not easy.
(Mostly agree, but--see that sweeping curve down below--this is the middle incline's bottom stretch)
3 I guess that multi-car loads were common probably hauled by a 'gripper car' (BARNEY's) controlled by a "driver".
PHOTOS suggest to me there was an operator (and/or team) at top and bottom w/o a local Driver--much as ski lifts today, kill buttons, alarms, etc. both top and bottom. Someone would have put any drivers inside the many camera views otherwise. Photographers who aren't railfans tend to focus on people, not things. (<G>)
Using a gripper car would mean that each train can be connected without a fixed connection point in the cable run. (No, seem to have been two Barneys per plane, six overall, with three heads, foots, engine houses, et. al. ... but also fixed locations. Likely, I reason, they might have used the Barney's to do fine tensioning on the wires--notice the couple views with a circular drum/pulley contraption on their carriage upper sides parallel to the ground + track. A big Crank and winch, I wager. The extra cable weight might have been a good thing too. Gut, haven't run any analysis per se.
Keep in mind the down runs was shaped as what my Pa might have called a 'dipsy-doodle' (roller-coaster) finish-- the end parts of each track, even going up the hill had a built in HUMP section if you think about it--staging for the next up section. See the pic showing the passing sidings at Main St. --so was not all double tracked nor single. We'll have to see if the University of Pennsylvania has better detailed information before modeling this.
Fixed connections could make life difficult when the cable runs around the drive wheel or loops over support rollers. (Do you think!)
(Yeah, but this was designed in Early Victorian Daze and with attitudes to match. Keep in mind also, this stretch was the single biggest terrain obstacle to overcome in the PA Government's 1830s' goal of connecting the Delaware River to the Northern Anthracite fields, and both to Pittsburgh (and west beyond the Ohio Country to the Great Lake states, esp. Chicago and Minnesota markets). The Pennsylvania Canal act began the process, but can't say how involved the LC&N's management were in the political push. They were certainly the BILL GATES of their day. (Whether they'd been contemplating extending the canal, and a rail spur before the act hardly matters now!) At the same time the AP and the 15+ miles of track south from there (That ruler line is the far side red line seen on the above GoogleEarth marked up screenshot--where they don't quite connect is the Solomon Gap. The second line started at the first junction south of the Gap through the Mountain Top Yards, thence down the mainline(s) [LVRR built just up slope and above all the way to the gorge]) to White Haven was under construction, the parent LC&N was busily extending the Lehigh Canal up to White Haven via the steep sided Lehigh Gorge to haul coal out as part of an overall strategy--at least partially funded and pushed by the Pennsylvania Government. The Blue Ridge escarpment (Blue Mountain, Pennsylvania) meant every other RR path had to dogleg 80-90 miles nearly to Harrisburg in the Susquehanna Valley (See the map I just now marked up and inserted. The strategic position of the Ashley Planes is obvious given the distances!) before they could turn north in the earliest low powered traction era. Later locomotive improvements allowed opening up some of the other water gaps in the escarpment one by one, but this was also pre-dynamite and pre-earth movers. Navvys were generally Irish Immigrants worked near to death or beyond to make the cuttings through the very tough terrain...
Eventually, with more and more powerful traction developed, other routes made some intermediate-Significant inroads into interior mountain valleys through other water gaps -- notably the PRR and famous Philadelphia & Reading (Reading RR in the board game monopoly!), but by and large, from the 1830s-late-1870s this was the only direct route and could charge what the traffic would bear, or ruthlessly lower prices to pinch out competition. Hence it sits as the 'hypotenuse route' more or less direct down to the many Eastern Seaboard cities thirsting for Anthracite for heat and industry alike.
The limited power of early Locomotives had much to do with it's design and funding, as did the corporate experience (of the parent Company's engineering staff). They'd founded the nation's second oldest RR between Summit Hill-Mauch Chunk on the Lehigh Canal and operated it for years since 1818--1820. Converting it to a Cable road was good practice for this project, and they already owned and operated the Lehigh Canal. (The LH&S 'Southern Division' got surveyed early on, but never thinking like a rail company, was not established until over a decade later--lucrative passenger traffic wasn't on the corporate radar! Their business focus was Anthracite! Eventually, they did extend a standard RR down to Easton, PA, but there still didn't think of passengers much. It took the Lehigh Valley challenge for that, and they soon after ceded their interests to the CNJ.)
4 I guess that the gripper car would be positioned at an assembly point and the cars ro be hauled would be pushed up to it and coupled. The routine at the other end would be much the reverse, the gripper car would release the cable, uncoupled from the load and manually switched across to a waiting siding ready to be pushed to the 'take up point' for the next load.
(How about using the third dimension!) Good thinking but we were both wrong on that--still unclear to me how one Barney goes and hides, and the other takes the next stage, or even how they were gotten out of the way on the down trip, as it seems clear [as I write that, I no longer know WHERE and WHY it's such a strong belief--a web page read last summer, no doubt!] the Barney's were ALWAYS placed BELOW the cuts (up or down) ALWAYS... no hitches that could bear that kind of weight if above, nor would hitched cars have good torque resistance at inflection points... to my calibrated engineering eye either!
Anthracite Route -- Part III-- Looking for a few Good Men!
6 I have assumed that a continuous cable would be used. It could have been done with a single cable reversing direction but this could be difficult as positioning the end flats so that both loads can be disconnected would require some pretty accurate cable splicing. The draw-works would have to be at the top of the inline.
NOTE the Barney cars had double flanges. I read a detail somewhere on the web which showed the clever 'frog' guide-crossover track, but most of the way, the Barney's wheels rode the same tracks as the consists. The outer flange served to telescope the wheel centering just a few inches each side letting it duck into the underpass/hides while the consist went up the HUMP, then to the cut assembling workers, or the reverse... I don't recall a detail for sure of the "Latches" but the tagging on the CNJ employees photos give the name authority, and it seems likely that such a brake system would be used on the descending side to let the Barney have time to find it's tunnel. Otherwise, the momentum of the consist rolling fast enough to slide over the Hump would try to retain contact-- and bounce things around at the least. Interesting series of possibilities, but all conjectural just now.
Can it be done in Trainz. Using a continuous loop cable and gripper cars, I think it could be done. The gripper cars would be simulated as locos but would need pretty accurate speed control, braking on the down hill run must match the uphill speed. Spacing on the cable would not be critical so loads don't need to pass each other at a fixed point. I assume that the track is double and does not need a passing loop at the mid point. Speed control would be easier if the rolling stock and gripper cars had zero mass.
Using a single cable driven from the top would be difficult almost impossible to have both loads arriving at the top and bottom at the same time. No, I don't think that would work. Zero mass traincars might work here
Interesting concept, how do they mobilize walking people and tractors plowing fields and such goodies as I've seen variously in TS10-TS12 tech since entering the modern Trainz age? I bring those up as the invisible track under seems to be a method, and the traction force would be immaterial. If you gravity run to the next 'latches up' and await the next Barney like I believe they did, could that sort of loop be used to make a Barney for real? Given weights and factors of 2-3 traincars at a time? Can PaulCas or some other clever person figure a script to decouple and allow three to roll into such latches in the first leg, up or down. I don't know, but I'm certain someone is going to have some fun with this someday!
I will be honest, not really my cup-of-tea, I could decide if I knew more.
Peter
Thanks for your time and attention everyone... mobilize answers here on the main forum, I know I can hotlink photos there and duplicate (more or less) this (non) email. // Frank
For others on the forum, the modular nature of what we're considering is amenable to adding others interested in the project. One sub-group is figuring the whole stretch of the LV through Pennsylvania, and it's parrallel CNJ operated leased LH&S roads. This will be both a passenger and freight route as it's prototype was. The LV Black Diamond Express (NYC to Buffalo) was an important Class I route for much of a century. We've not decided an exact time window yet, but leaning to ca 1943-43 when the war effort would have the region's industry and passenger rail services hopping!
Apply for membership at the Yesterdayz-Trainz website and join the fun. We're about 2/3rds experienced content creators and 1/3rd less so but wanting to learn making assets. Most of the latter count themselves as experienced route builders, and this 2/3:1/3 seems to be a good balance. // Frank
Anthracite Route -- Part III -- Looking for a few Good Men! (Aw, no pics in this part!)
5 Each end would liaise to ensure that the combined up/down total cable loads are matched. The breaking load of the cable would determine the loads that can be carried at any given time.
We Know that most West-bound/down direction traffic after the 1870's used the "Back Track" (Today's RBMN, CSX & NS mainline--technical ownership, even post-CONRAIL era-- may STILL be with LH&S or LC&N's 'heirs and assigns"!) once the LV was bold enough to build side-by-side with the LH&S-- interesting historically, a well funded challenge was motivated by and with the LC&N/LH&S RR's monopoly over this -- 'the short route' to Philadelphia and many other Eastern cities via the Delaware River. In it's 'Robber Baron era' day -- it 'had' to have been a battle of titanic business entities played out on Wall Street and back rooms. I need to find a good history of this! We also know this was the only RR sitting astride the E-W artery to the steel mills at Bethlehem and Allentown to the southeast, and Pittsburgh, Indiana and Ohio to the West... and vital to all Anthracite consumers. i.e. I suspect... They could get and got some good steel cables when they needed such! FYI the backtrack- It gets down off the ridge-line in Avoca & Dupont near Hudson Jct in Moosac, where all the competing rail companies apparently shared trackage to Scranton or cross connected connected. It's obvious on any map software. From what I can tell, all the southbound traffic from points north and down this line--it all needs to pass the wye at Duryea yard on the West Pittston side of the river. Having walked and photographed along Railroad St. in Duryea, west of Avoca/Dupont when I call the back track "down", it has a mean grade of at least 5% and my read was it hit near 8% in a few places. The snakey climb up to Mountain pass is double tracked from there for good reason, and must see some similar gradients. Untangling the trackage changes over sixty years of RR decline and housing/highway construction is one messy job, John and I can tell you!
5 Each end would liaise to ensure that the combined up/down total cable loads are matched. The breaking load of the cable would determine the loads that can be carried at any given time.
We Know that most West-bound/down direction traffic after the 1870's used the "Back Track" (Today's RBMN, CSX & NS mainline--technical ownership, even post-CONRAIL era-- may STILL be with LH&S or LC&N's 'heirs and assigns"!) once the LV was bold enough to build side-by-side with the LH&S-- interesting historically, a well funded challenge was motivated by and with the LC&N/LH&S RR's monopoly over this -- 'the short route' to Philadelphia and many other Eastern cities via the Delaware River. In it's 'Robber Baron era' day -- it 'had' to have been a battle of titanic business entities played out on Wall Street and back rooms. I need to find a good history of this! We also know this was the only RR sitting astride the E-W artery to the steel mills at Bethlehem and Allentown to the southeast, and Pittsburgh, Indiana and Ohio to the West... and vital to all Anthracite consumers. i.e. I suspect... They could get and got some good steel cables when they needed such! FYI the backtrack- It gets down off the ridge-line in Avoca & Dupont near Hudson Jct in Moosac, where all the competing rail companies apparently shared trackage to Scranton or cross connected connected. It's obvious on any map software. From what I can tell, all the southbound traffic from points north and down this line--it all needs to pass the wye at Duryea yard on the West Pittston side of the river. Having walked and photographed along Railroad St. in Duryea, west of Avoca/Dupont when I call the back track "down", it has a mean grade of at least 5% and my read was it hit near 8% in a few places. The snakey climb up to Mountain pass is double tracked from there for good reason, and must see some similar gradients. Untangling the trackage changes over sixty years of RR decline and housing/highway construction is one messy job, John and I can tell you!
6 I have assumed that a continuous cable would be used. It could have been done with a single cable reversing direction but this could be difficult as positioning the end flats so that both loads can be disconnected would require some pretty accurate cable splicing. The draw-works would have to be at the top of the inline.
NOTE the Barney cars had double flanges. I read a detail somewhere on the web which showed the clever 'frog' guide-crossover track, but most of the way, the Barney's wheels rode the same tracks as the consists. The outer flange served to telescope the wheel centering just a few inches each side letting it duck into the underpass/hides while the consist went up the HUMP, then to the cut assembling workers, or the reverse... I don't recall a detail for sure of the "Latches" but the tagging on the CNJ employees photos give the name authority, and it seems likely that such a brake system would be used on the descending side to let the Barney have time to find it's tunnel. Otherwise, the momentum of the consist rolling fast enough to slide over the Hump would try to retain contact-- and bounce things around at the least. Interesting series of possibilities, but all conjectural just now.
Can it be done in Trainz. Using a continuous loop cable and gripper cars, I think it could be done. The gripper cars would be simulated as locos but would need pretty accurate speed control, braking on the down hill run must match the uphill speed. Spacing on the cable would not be critical so loads don't need to pass each other at a fixed point. I assume that the track is double and does not need a passing loop at the mid point. Speed control would be easier if the rolling stock and gripper cars had zero mass.
Using a single cable driven from the top would be difficult almost impossible to have both loads arriving at the top and bottom at the same time. No, I don't think that would work. Zero mass traincars might work here
Interesting concept, how do they mobilize walking people and tractors plowing fields and such goodies as I've seen variously in TS10-TS12 tech since entering the modern Trainz age? I bring those up as the invisible track under seems to be a method, and the traction force would be immaterial. If you gravity run to the next 'latches up' and await the next Barney like I believe they did, could that sort of loop be used to make a Barney for real? Given weights and factors of 2-3 traincars at a time? Can PaulCas or some other clever person figure a script to decouple and allow three to roll into such latches in the first leg, up or down. I don't know, but I'm certain someone is going to have some fun with this someday!
I will be honest, not really my cup-of-tea, I could decide if I knew more.
Peter
Thanks for your time and attention everyone... mobilize answers here on the main forum, I know I can hotlink photos there and duplicate (more or less) this (non) email. // Frank
For others on the forum, the modular nature of what we're considering is amenable to adding others interested in the project. One sub-group is figuring the whole stretch of the LV through Pennsylvania, and it's parrallel CNJ operated leased LH&S roads. This will be both a passenger and freight route as it's prototype was. The LV Black Diamond Express (NYC to Buffalo) was an important Class I route for much of a century. We've not decided an exact time window yet, but leaning to ca 1943-43 when the war effort would have the region's industry and passenger rail services hopping!
Apply for membership at the Yesterdayz-Trainz website and join the fun. We're about 2/3rds experienced content creators and 1/3rd less so but wanting to learn making assets. Most of the latter count themselves as experienced route builders, and this 2/3:1/3 seems to be a good balance. // Frank
The original idea behind the Anthracite Project was to showcase the anthracite industry in the Wyoming/Lackawanna Valleys or the northern coal fields. My thinking at the time was to confine the layout with-in the valley. With hundreds of coal breakers,mines (shafts), railroad infrastructure and basic industries the research time alone would be phenomenal. To include all the complete PA LV line like it's described in a above post is unrealistic, but I sure would like to see it. My thinking at the time was to cut the layout into six sections building one section at a time.
It's mentioned in one of the prior posting about the Reading Railroad. The Reading operated in the southern anthracite fields and never made it to the northern fields. The main railroads in the northern fields were the DL&W, LV, Erie, CNJ, D&H. The PRR followed the Susquehanna River from Sunbury but went no further north then Wilkes-Barre. The NYO&W also tapped the valley from the north. This railroad was the last railroad to enter the valley and ended up being the first to abandoned the area's operation in 1957. There was also my buddy the Laurel Line that ran car interchanges between these major railroads.
Lots of fun facts!
While I don't want to be a part of any group, I'm willing to help out if this project gets off the ground.
It's mentioned in one of the prior posting about the Reading Railroad. The Reading operated in the southern anthracite fields and never made it to the northern fields. The main railroads in the northern fields were the DL&W, LV, Erie, CNJ, D&H. The PRR followed the Susquehanna River from Sunbury but went no further north then Wilkes-Barre. The NYO&W also tapped the valley from the north. This railroad was the last railroad to enter the valley and ended up being the first to abandoned the area's operation in 1957. There was also my buddy the Laurel Line that ran car interchanges between these major railroads.
Lots of fun facts!
While I don't want to be a part of any group, I'm willing to help out if this project gets off the ground.
narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
I initially said I was bowing out of the group then Frank pushed the Ashley Planes in my face so it looks as though I am in again.
I made some silly assumptions about the planes. not having seen the details on the internet but since then I have spent some time digging to find what i can. I am assuming that the period selected is after the Back-Track is operative. In this period all the plane work was up hill, empty freight and passengers were hauled on the Back-Track.
The uphill tracks had derails at intervals to send any run-aways to the ground, it is a split rail and spring-loaded rail section facing up hill that diverts the outside wheel off the track. The presence of these would prevent any downhill working apart from the barney which has out-side flanges.
In addition to the heavy main cable, there is a lighter tail line that connects the downhill ends of the Barneys and passes around a horizontal pulley under the ground at the low end. This is intended to maintain some tension in the haul cable.
The literature implies that the 'latches' were something to do with the track shuffling of the Barney prior to entering and leaving the tunnel. I believe that they were designed as spring loaded 'hold-backs' for a cut of cars placed by the yard engine, positioned correctly for the Barney to start pushing.
Between plane 1 and 2, and plane 2 and 3 the track has a down gradient allowing cars to traverse the section under gravity only. There must have been workers to control this otherwise the working of all the planes would have to be accurately timed. I suggest that this would be very difficult. I suggest that "latches' were only needed at the commencement of the first plane, the connecting sections were gravity worked and the cut of cars would wait at the lowest point, allowed to run there after the Barney had entered the tunnel.
How would this work in Trainz? I dunno,
Will vertical switches work. Normal switches with the tracks converging/diverging in the vertical plane?
Can traincars be 'disappeared'?
Is this route going to be worked on and will it contain the Planes?
Peter
I made some silly assumptions about the planes. not having seen the details on the internet but since then I have spent some time digging to find what i can. I am assuming that the period selected is after the Back-Track is operative. In this period all the plane work was up hill, empty freight and passengers were hauled on the Back-Track.
The uphill tracks had derails at intervals to send any run-aways to the ground, it is a split rail and spring-loaded rail section facing up hill that diverts the outside wheel off the track. The presence of these would prevent any downhill working apart from the barney which has out-side flanges.
In addition to the heavy main cable, there is a lighter tail line that connects the downhill ends of the Barneys and passes around a horizontal pulley under the ground at the low end. This is intended to maintain some tension in the haul cable.
The literature implies that the 'latches' were something to do with the track shuffling of the Barney prior to entering and leaving the tunnel. I believe that they were designed as spring loaded 'hold-backs' for a cut of cars placed by the yard engine, positioned correctly for the Barney to start pushing.
Between plane 1 and 2, and plane 2 and 3 the track has a down gradient allowing cars to traverse the section under gravity only. There must have been workers to control this otherwise the working of all the planes would have to be accurately timed. I suggest that this would be very difficult. I suggest that "latches' were only needed at the commencement of the first plane, the connecting sections were gravity worked and the cut of cars would wait at the lowest point, allowed to run there after the Barney had entered the tunnel.
How would this work in Trainz? I dunno,
Will vertical switches work. Normal switches with the tracks converging/diverging in the vertical plane?
Can traincars be 'disappeared'?
Is this route going to be worked on and will it contain the Planes?
Peter
narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
I have answered one of my questions. A vertical switch will work so it is possible to simulate the Barney coming out of the tunnel and pushing on a cut of cars. I need to know how to trigger uncoupling or how to make a loco push cars without coupling.
It is beginning to look as though it will be possible to make the Planes work, but probably some scripting will be required to link the three planes together. I will do some more fiddling but only if there is a possibility of this route being a 'goer'
Peter
It is beginning to look as though it will be possible to make the Planes work, but probably some scripting will be required to link the three planes together. I will do some more fiddling but only if there is a possibility of this route being a 'goer'
Peter
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So sorry to have disappeared on this, but the weather broke, my laptop (and I loath email by web) took nearly three months to fix, and as summer arrived, I just got busier and behinder. Heck, I've barely had time to talk to John by phone more than twice a week--and for only brief periods at that! Trainz time has been scarce to missing entirely, and all of that is involved with cleaning up the fixed assets archives I started back in October and continuing fixing assets since I was stupid enough to download haphazardly to different versions. (once I had three CMs downloading all at once--seemed like a good idea at the time, but getting the gestalt into a TS12 install with all fixed assets has been a chore.) I'm still lacking various assets in TS12 to work on my main routes, but getting closer. Sometimes DLS upgrades help there so I'm porting less from TRS2006 myself as I trim down the 125 missing assets unavailable in April-May. Haven't checked where that is at yet, but I've got all my TS10s and most errors in TS12 handled now. Maybe a dozen to go. My initial TS2009 install still has a bunch, but more and more I've been able to copy the fixed versions from the archive to make a quick repair across each version. It's been educational!
Gradewise per the topo map studies and looks with GoogleEarth, all the planes were likely gravity down save at their ends, and a short stretch of the low track down from the second planes curving to the top of the lowest planes, which seems to be mostly level--likely used as a big queue/staging area. Your understanding of the latches is what I tried to convey once somewhere, save I think they were positioned at both the tops and the bottoms (where the cable winch engine was operated from????) so to hold the cars while the barney's went into the barney tunnel. Likely there was an operator at both top and bottom able to stop the cable like at a ski lift, and like those, used co-ordination by phones.
U of PA and Penn State should have details we can data mine if I ever get time to contact them. I have close family members who are alumni of both, which might help. Also have a contact in the PA RR museum and have exchanged some emails with a professor who's authored several books on PA RR history--believe he was a U of PA, now that I think on it. I want to get at least one of his books before picking on him again, but he was very congenial. Now that I have the laptop back I can begin chasing some of that down when I want to have a smoke break and get off the desktop. Sitting on the front porch or rear deck is far more restful than slaving away without a nicotine fix for hours! Alas, far too much of my memory these days is digitally encoded on hard drives! // F
Alas, the rains have stopped and it's been clear enough long enough to dry out so I have to get outside again and knock down priority projects another notch. TTFN, just keep this on the back burner but progressing now and again. I'll poke John and see what he's decided to do with a newer better TransDEM map. He wanted to embedd better topomap data into a newer enlarged revised initial area from the last one by Steamboateng. I'd laid down a few miles of track on that version, but it's not worth keeping. // Frank
John and I have figured your assessment of the numbers of active breakers is off by a large order of magnitude as they were not shy about taking mining outputs from anyone's mine. If you think of them as intermediate transshipping centers much like a regional trucking and wharehousing operation, it becomes clearer. We figure... You'd have only half a dozen or so operating in the lower valley at any one time you choose to model. The maps of the mining rights ownership are all butted right up against one another and all mixed together just like housing lots on a city plan. True there were many more mine heads because of that, but the later the era, the less complicated that became with mergers and consolidations. Since we were thinking of the bustling WWII years while there was still lots of passenger traffic, most of the consolidations should have been long completed. So me thinks your scheme is likely a bit more doable than you seem to think. Consider the war industries were still converting from coal to oil fired boilers, and oil was a strategic material much impacted by naval needs, and the area would still be booming. Not sure when the silk industry faded, but suspect it didn't die until the fifties either.
Again, sorry about the delayed response. As far as doing this, Steamboateng, John and I are definitely going to do something to get this going eventually. Given in depth discussions with John and a few with Steamboat and Paul Cass by skype, we're likely to start with the Mountaintop-Duryea yard stretch and work out from that core 3-5 stretch in each direction, so the Ashley Planes will be dead center in that! So YES! Keep some time free to work on it in the coming year!
Gradewise per the topo map studies and looks with GoogleEarth, all the planes were likely gravity down save at their ends, and a short stretch of the low track down from the second planes curving to the top of the lowest planes, which seems to be mostly level--likely used as a big queue/staging area. Your understanding of the latches is what I tried to convey once somewhere, save I think they were positioned at both the tops and the bottoms (where the cable winch engine was operated from????) so to hold the cars while the barney's went into the barney tunnel. Likely there was an operator at both top and bottom able to stop the cable like at a ski lift, and like those, used co-ordination by phones.
U of PA and Penn State should have details we can data mine if I ever get time to contact them. I have close family members who are alumni of both, which might help. Also have a contact in the PA RR museum and have exchanged some emails with a professor who's authored several books on PA RR history--believe he was a U of PA, now that I think on it. I want to get at least one of his books before picking on him again, but he was very congenial. Now that I have the laptop back I can begin chasing some of that down when I want to have a smoke break and get off the desktop. Sitting on the front porch or rear deck is far more restful than slaving away without a nicotine fix for hours! Alas, far too much of my memory these days is digitally encoded on hard drives! // F
Run you're scripting needs past John and especially Paul Cass. He's into that and since we're basically looking at a series of mocrossing kinds (I suspect) some cross between those and ATLS switch controls may do the trick. I've barely begun using the latter, so have no insights, but sequencing a set of triggered advances and differing actions should be a fairly simple programming task. If you can figure out what states need to be starts and stops, what actions change the states, and what the action after the state changes are in some sort of table or an old fashioned flow chart diagram, we can likely find someone to code any necessary interactive code. Paul's on good terms with Ian Woodmore and Andi06 and I'd guess between the three of them they can take such a state specification and adapt code that would make this work.
Alas, the rains have stopped and it's been clear enough long enough to dry out so I have to get outside again and knock down priority projects another notch. TTFN, just keep this on the back burner but progressing now and again. I'll poke John and see what he's decided to do with a newer better TransDEM map. He wanted to embedd better topomap data into a newer enlarged revised initial area from the last one by Steamboateng. I'd laid down a few miles of track on that version, but it's not worth keeping. // Frank
narrowgauge
92 year oldTrainz veteran
I have the inclines working, semi-continuously, just using existing Rules and Commands, no additional scripts required. In the process I taught myself how to use the bloody things.
Up until yesterday I thought I was on the final stretch, but then the Un-Portal2 I was using decided to confuse some of the portals listed and things went South. Timing is very critical as the trolleys have to be in place before cars are delivered to each plane.. This will be easier when the planes are used as part of a route as cars can be delivered to the number three 'lowest' plane as and when required. This is the reason for the semi-continuously comment, if a cut of cars is delivered before the trolley is 'nested', things grind to a halt. I have a little more work to do in this area.
To make the trolley, a "Barney" as it is known to its friends, push three loaded cars up a 14.5% grade it has been loaded with power, probably enough to launch it into space.
A side note.Why on earth do people choose to use black characters on a dark blue background, and then elsewhere Auran used white on a light coloured background. Not very clever.
Peter
Up until yesterday I thought I was on the final stretch, but then the Un-Portal2 I was using decided to confuse some of the portals listed and things went South. Timing is very critical as the trolleys have to be in place before cars are delivered to each plane.. This will be easier when the planes are used as part of a route as cars can be delivered to the number three 'lowest' plane as and when required. This is the reason for the semi-continuously comment, if a cut of cars is delivered before the trolley is 'nested', things grind to a halt. I have a little more work to do in this area.
To make the trolley, a "Barney" as it is known to its friends, push three loaded cars up a 14.5% grade it has been loaded with power, probably enough to launch it into space.
A side note.Why on earth do people choose to use black characters on a dark blue background, and then elsewhere Auran used white on a light coloured background. Not very clever.
Peter
Sort of like a mosquito pushing an Elephant! Great progress to hear about! On the latter, they're just being consistent... ly uncaring about older eyesight. The wonder is it's lasted through three main versions... Need more people griping angrily like me! // Frank
cascaderailroad
New member
Using Firefox and IE, you can custom color/text/fonts ... there are also 2 Firefox apps that recolor webpages: "No Squint" and "Color that Site"
I use a medium gray background, with black bold Arial/Arial Black letters ... even my CM is colored this way ... as is Notepad.
I view most pages at 150% zoom
Not to pick on you, even if you misread the above, but with all due respect...
Why would anyone ever use notepad unless forced at gunpoint? Try out Notepad++, Programmer's Notepad, or the Crimson Editor (an updated version of Ruby). All feature multiple file editing, far superior search and replace, and will match things like parentheses (esp. '{' and '}' which helps a lot working in containers! And they are all free and at least two of them are customizable so one could compile a syntax table and list of keywords and have a Trainz editor version.
I find that Notepad++ has the best all around mix of features. The only thing I don't like about it is the way it tracks up to the last 30 files accessed... of limited use with ephemeral folders and all files named config.txt. If I could block it from saving any config.txt file, the 30 remembered would be a great! You can also save a session, define macros, save and import those and so on. Using it with REGEX SAR, it can be used to quickly take a copied list of mixed assetnames and kuids and generate one big block of kuids as a CSV/CSL... which can then be fed back to CM as a pick list in a named filter. (I do that more rapidly combining paste into a spreadsheet, and then column capture (cut), finishing with repasting into Notepad++ where the SAR across line boundaries instantly turns out the comma separated list with a couple of mouse operations.
Try changing things across a line end in Notepad. Ha! Better, Notepad++ also allows search and replace in folders and subfolders with filespec targeted filtering, so the same dumb error in 12 assets can be fixed without even opening their configs from \editing. (I have a series of pics ready for various tutorials on such in preparation for the Wikibook.)
That would be right -- the TS09-TS12 background and font size and coloring choices are awful! Cascader has the strenght of ten, as his heart was in the right place though! // Frank