New Maritime and Canal Worlds of Trainz

[Barry]

New Maritime and Canal Worlds of Trainz

Just trying to make sense of things as using TC3 for making content and sceneries.
So the New in the title is for the new Trainz Worlds that seem to be unfolding from the Classics to 2009/2010....to....
Previously made maritime content and canal content set in an earlier age before trains (and some later that included more modern docks and trams of Liverpool c1910).
That was using ver. 2004 and earlier versions from near when trainz first started.

So will be using the beta Blender exporter to .im files as it develops, as have used Blender for several years making content for a sailing simulator, and same blend files will be used for trainz, plus content I previously made in gmax for canals, docks, barges, sailing ships, etc, on the DS.
The drivable content still works if I ignore the so called errors.
These of cause are not errors in previous versions but gradually trying to see what changes I need to make for items to be compatible to TC1 onwards.
Just experimenting with the gaff rig ship I made in gmax a few years back. Aliased the engine noise to the the background sea sound by Ian (Vulcan).


Tried the invisible bogey in TC3 as an alias but not sure if it also needs the silent track sound I noticed in TC3 as still click-clacks?
Will have to look up what to enter to makesilenttrack or similar wording to remove the click-clack which I have read a few times in posts but forget now.

No idea what to do with the alpha art files with the error it brings so deleted them for now and still works in TC3 in drivable mode.
So I need to find out how to fix them also.

Presumably the kuid table not required at bottom of config. so deleted the horn sound, etc as they are still in main body of the config which still works without an error for them.
Noticed that CCP made a seperate section for the bogey in the config when saved using TC3
That is testing with CCP in classics 3, but wary now as only deleted a bit if marked as a deletable error with a cross beside it, and see if it still works.
I need to find a fairly basic drivable boat or train engine to download to see the layout of the config and files, suitable for classics 1/2/3 etc onwards, that doesn't bring up errors in CCP. Will refer to CCG as and when necessary for the small items I can't solve.

My era of interest based now about c1785-1800 as docks in Liverpool lot less complex then and also the coastline mainly rural and canals essential for commerce. The time period needs to be fixed as changes to docks and ports occured at different times.

Possibly early mining could be included as much was transported by horse drawn transport along the canal networks of the UK
Please add to thread if anything interesting in content creation with maritime or canal related items, for any era, but mainly suitable for TC1 onwards, etc especially interesting.

If I can make routes interesting enough for myself will continue as the content I make, I can use in the next version of the sailing simuLator and Trainz, both set in about 1785-1800.

Barry

:)

[Barry]

disable-extra-track-sounds 1 After a search added this line to traincar config which seems to work. However shows as an error in CCP in TC3 with a X to delete it but OK in CMP. Anyway gaff rig boat (sailing) nicely with the sound sound of the sea and no click-clack rail sound so it stays. Barry

[Barry]

After testing out various options have doubts about utilising trainz for coastal options as using HOG and terrain is too low in parts........... An example is the area between the Gt Orme North Wales and connncting land. I made all the Conway valley in hour or using srtm2 data, but as not using tiger data for UK can't see a way of texturing the terrain and identifying the river contours. Apparently little to no interest in using HOG these days so without input its a pointless exercise. etc...... So thats that....... Barry.................

[Barry]

Also as regards TC3 most content I made previously shows an error as also depends whith invisible bogeys, invisible track etc I used in trs2004 when making them...but that is checking with cmp and ccp.......... I have read most of the the faults are originally due to incorrect procedure when making content but pretty sure most of the so called errors exactlly the opposite to this and are caused by the constant alterations to trainz.............whether this has actually improved trainz in the long term is open to doubt in my opinion, as even with a reasonable graphics card sliders still need to be turned down in tc3 etc...... So once again will observe but not really worthwhile trying to fathom out making new content compatible for tc3, and as have made content previously using 2004 edition I know the countless hours this can entail. . Maybe 2009/2010 will bring some answers............so will go back to making Blender content for the next version of the sail simulator and maybe use the Blender beta trainz exporter again at a later date............. Spent quite a bit of time now with tc3 putting the North Wales castles into Trainz using the Blender beta exporter to .im files..........trying out HOG again, using Vista and seing what cmp and ccp thinks of my content. and trying out my drivable sailing ships, etc.......but not impressed at present with the overall scene so...........maybe later or not. Barry

[geophil]

An example is the area between the Gt Orme North Wales and connncting land. I made all the Conway valley in hour or using srtm2 data, but as not using tiger data for UK can't see a way of texturing the terrain and identifying the river contours. Apparently little to no interest in using HOG these days so without input its a pointless exercise. etc...

As you wrote in another post, you are aware of the other options. ;)

[stagecoach]

Hi Barry
Good to see you still around. When i got 06 i did not get on well with it so thought would try TC3. I moved my Devon Lines over and have found the performance greatly improved. I did get the pause while cache was loaded in 04 & 06 but this does not seem to happen with TC3, it runs very smoothly indeed. Dont know if this is because the 06 .ja files have been copied over as well? (see missing built-in kuids thread)

[Barry]

As you wrote in another post, you are aware of the other options. ;)

Not sure you mean. I especially mentioned the other option as people always refer to the payware option in my threads about HOG and my posts are regarding HOG FREEWARE. The payware option is not an option for many, nor for me as I do not use paypal or debit card on line. Many simulators these days have integraated dem data. This was available in the 2002 version of the sailing simulator and when combined with the integrated dem data program accurate depths and heights could be placed. Virtual Sailor has integrated dem data and routes are generated in about 1 minute using srtm2 data............Train simulators are no different. I think Tony mentioned that integrated dem data may be included in the 2009 version OF trainz and I think similar to HOG was mentioned. HOG still works OK with Vista and routes are easily generated using Free Microdem with it....... However it uses Tiger Data which is USA. but I am sure there are ways of using HOG to texture realistically for UK data, and to make realistic routes based on satellite data but as mentioned unfortunately there is little to no input at present........... Barry

[Barry]

Hi Barry
Good to see you still around. When i got 06 i did not get on well with it so thought would try TC3. I moved my Devon Lines over and have found the performance greatly improved. I did get the pause while cache was loaded in 04 & 06 but this does not seem to happen with TC3, it runs very smoothly indeed. Dont know if this is because the 06 .ja files have been copied over as well? (see missing built-in kuids thread)

Hi....nice to see your post......... Just getting a bit exasperated as don't seem to be able to make tc3 compatible content due to lack of info as I detailed in other threads, etc. maybe will just use my old content and leave updating or making new content until things settle down............... Thanks Barry

[geophil]

HOG still works OK with Vista and routes are easily generated using Free Microdem with it....... However it uses Tiger Data which is USA.

As you know, it's not HOG which is able to process TIGER data, it's MicroDEM.

HOG is a converter. It converts tga image files to create a Trainz .gnd file, taking one image as input for the terrain height and the other image as input for a ground texture. It does not know anything about coordinates and scale except for mapping each pixel in the image files to an equivalent of 10 m.

MicroDEM does all the geodetic stuff, it has the necessary mapping formulas, it re-projects the SRTM DEM data and it can read and re-project TIGER data. The latter, I would think, is just by chance, as MicroDEM is not a designated map viewer, it's DEM tool.

You would need a proper map viewer for dealing with arbitrary maps. Not many of those viewers are freeware. GlobalMapper has been mentioned a lot, but it's not cheap. There are few others and some offer free evaluation with or without limited functionality. Some process DEMs, others do not.

[Barry]

Thanks Phil. Just using the latest version of Microdem which is about 60 meg download now. Used to use 3Dem/Virtual Terrain to change file type and integrated dem editor for sailing simulator.

Barry

[Barry]

Heve posted this mainly for my own reference as a back up if required.
As using vista save Hog to mapfile.gnd name as using TC3.

If referring to the post below use at you own risk as regards computer crashing or whatever, as there may be errors in descriptions etc, but I understand what it means and is a summary of the procedure.

Microdem and Hog
------------------------------------------
5 August 2008
Tutorial for generating dems using HOG and MICRODEM

Some file ref. nos for for NW UK and Wales.
N53W003,N53W004,N54W003,N54W004,
N53W004, for Conway and North Wales.
N54W005 which has the Isle of Man

Merging dems

ON START UPOF MICRODEM and before opening files click in/out button on toolbar.
File/Data Manipulation/Merge. Then go to the srtm2 folder and hgt files and select say 4 ajacent files while holding down control for Conway up to Ribble..N53W003, N53W004,N54W003,N54W004.Click OK and a panel opens with text details of 4 plus another panel into which you type name of merged dem and save to DEM folder, computer/local disc/map data.
Saves automatically when panel closed. Crop a section if merged.
Convert to UTM. Next crop section required using dotted square icon to draw around the section and rename and save.

Making satellite dem. maps for trainz using hog by Adam Wojcieszyk, and Microdem.

First make a blank I tile map in Trainz and give it a single short name and save.
With classics the map name when opended with CMP in explorer is "mapfile" so give it this name

http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/index.html
for srtm2 data
I am using srtm2 (2nd version).

Open Microdem.. but before starting set Microdem up so more tabs become visible, Options then click Regular in the Menus Panel.
File/Open/Open Dem/ All files.. and go to where you saved your hgt file of your choice and open it. At the top of the window click the dotted square and draw a box around say the Isle Of Man starting top left. Try and keep the square close to the area you want. The program will then automatically crop it. Before we start we could remove the clutter from the image as we will need to save it at the end as a tga file. Modify/Grid/then tick Neither. Also Map Marginalia/then take the ticks out of the boxes.


Also we need the Map as UTM so File/Save Dem/Reinterpolate UTM.
Then we need to set the pixel size.
Next Modify/Map Area/Set Map Pixel Size. Copy this value. then Modify/Map Area/Zoom in. (Zoom in is a box to enter our value in). Paste the value in then move the point one place to the left and delete the orignal decimal point so we have divide it by ten. Mine is 86.56011894 which becomes divided by ten. 8.656011894. click OK and new map is generated with different colours. My map size is 69 megs. I think, and panel warns will load slowly, etc. Best to keep the size as low as possible.
Also possibly simpler just to set Map Pixel size to 10 as an alternative?


If you go to "Info" tab on top row screen pixel size is 10 metres which is what we want for HOG.

We now need to take a note of the maximum and minumum heights on the map to enter the values into the HOG program so Modify/Elevation/Then click Z range. I think it is now map area range as dem full range is the full hgt file and we are only using the cropped section. This just applies to my map, although I imagine you would need to crop a small section from any hgt file otherwise would be too large for the tga file. You can always check when you first load the map and run the mouse over the highest point on map to get an approximation of the highest height.
Anway my height is 616.485413 and -1.878941. This height in metres is approximately correct for Snaefell which is the higHest point on the Isle of Man.

The gnd. file we make from it to replace our route gnd. file has to be the same name as the Trainz route. (name it mapfile for TC3 trainz). Save it into the Hog Folder/Directory. File/Save Image/Save as type Targa (tga) with single name.



End of Microdem Section
---------------------------------------
Hog Section. When downloading HOG the 5 sections should be opened in sequence so they overwrite each other.

So open Hog. In the Elevation data panel open the tga file you saved from Microdem. This should be in the same folder into which you installed Hog.

In the Final output panel click pick, and opposite the file name type the name you gave your trainz route, single name. Make sure set to Trainz Terrain Files gnd. Click open and when it says. Do you want the file creating?, click yes. Then at the bottom click generate gnd file.

Do not forgot to enter our minimum and maximum heights we took a note of. I imagine up to the nearest metre will do, then click generate gnd file. All we do now is replace the gnd file which was made when we made our route with the one we just generated. Must have the same route name as the gnd file we are replacing.
Not sure about the texture settings as Tiger Data not applicable to UK?
Name of route gnd file is mapfile as as I am using TC3, also using Vista.
------------------------------------------

Also made yesterday the Conway Valley river system but Gt Orme height was about 12 metres too low and the low lying areas too hard to restore without textures to outline them and the same for the river but you can work along that using the heights as a guideline, as not sure on the settings for the basic hog textures that come with HOG.

Basic ground texture colours will do fine to outline the heights, sea areas Etc. OS maps can be referred to for the rest of the details or make a basemap, work over it and delete.

If anybody can help with further HOG details please add to this thread and detail the method to use, especially without tIger data.

Thanks

Barry

[Barry]

http://www.barandshe.clara.net/Trainz/route_conwy1.jpg

From my site.

Using Hog and Microdem for the basic dem terrain, Conway castle exported using beta blender exporter, and gaffrig on invisible track previously made with gmax on animated textured water in Trainz.

The dem data is of the river Conway estuary up to Trefriw. However not the best way to make it but will do for now to test my Blender content. Terrain needs texturing, conway river needs opening up more and the coastline needs many trees adding to set a rural scene of more than 2 centuries ago.
-------------------------------------------
Probably go back to making content for the sailsim when next version comes as also needs depths for that as well as heights but trainz is useful for experimenting with content.

Might get more interested come 2009 version when file types and methods might have settled down and perhaps might look at canal networks then.:)

Barry

P.S. for srtm2 data file N53W004, for Conway and North Wales.
P.P.S the bar on the boats bowsprit is the trainz message. didn't notice that until made.

[Barry]

A few points I had my gaff rig ship moving at max 17mph although engine config. was set to 8 then remembered you set it to half so reset to 4 and max now 9 mph, but think set to 3 would be better especially if using canal boats.

Wary of what the default textures will be in future editions as been scuppered before when auran's default barge track disappeared years ago and was included I think in my routes on DS, also the default textures changed, so got as far as making a few sea bed textures for tc3.
So think I will make my own textures just in case.

Whether I will be able to make further drivable items compatible for tc3 at present is doubtful until I find out more. Also will be using Blender beta exporter.

This bring me to point 3 concerning the height of drivable track which was agreed years ago with the boat 3 metres above track for canal work, and 7 metres for sea boats. This is mainly to do with the size of the gaps left when making channels and canals etc which needed covering with the bank splines.

Just tried out Ian's (vulcan) drivable boats and track, which he set for the boat 3 metres below track, with track in the air.
Also I think the working locks are similar but not tried them out yet but downloaded them today.

Must admit 3 metres above the boat in the air for the track does seem better for the view. This is because when boat at 7 metre above track the view when zooming in becomes very low down with the boat well above the eyeline.

With the track 3 metres above the boat in the air you are at boat level when zooming in....that is if the invisible track stays invisible with further trainz changes and stays visible in driver map which it is for tc3 but not in earlier editions. One of the reasons why I stopped making content etc a while back. Last version I had was 2004. With Clasics 1/2 I couldn't get cmp to open so making anything was out of the question.
TC3 seems to be working with no problems so far, but using ftp for downloads, and only putting my ID into cmp.

If you have any maritime, canal, sea, or whatever related content creation info that is useful perhaps post, as makes something to read and may be interesting for future reference.

Barry

[stagecoach]

Hi Barry
The locks work a treat, the only problem i had was that the boats would not go far enough into the lock in AI mode even with a trackmark set at 0m. You may also find that to operate the lock finding the red/green arrow can be a problem depending how you build the banks up.
I did a very rough layout with vulcans canal locks, bridge etc which can be downloaded from
http://www.devontrainz.co.uk/devon trainz/water world.cdp
It is only basic so those that asked could see how to set up the different items.

[Barry]

Hi Barry
The locks work a treat, the only problem i had was that the boats would not go far enough into the lock in AI mode even with a trackmark set at 0m. You may also find that to operate the lock finding the red/green arrow can be a problem depending how you build the banks up.
I did a very rough layout with vulcans canal locks, bridge etc which can be downloaded from
http://www.devontrainz.co.uk/devon trainz/water world.cdp (http://www.devontrainz.co.uk/devon%20trainz/water%20world.cdp)
It is only basic so those that asked could see how to set up the different items.

Hello Keith.

Will download the little route you mention.
Have looked at it the older one for ships and did try the canal locks many months ago before tc3 but couldn't get the part to show in surveyor for some reason.

Have tried Ians canal boats on the new track and also downloaded the canal swing bridge. I made a static version of one years ago on the DS based on ones near where I live with the old planks and the arm to push it to open.

Most seem to be replaced now with stronger metal parts because of the road traffic as originally bulit for horse traffic I think.

Many Thanks

Barry

[stagecoach]

Barry
I had your swing bridge years ago but you may also like to look at bridges by Bendorsey kuid 210518. He has done a working swing footbridge kuid2:210518:1514:1 as well as other canal bridges.

keith

[Barry]

Barry
I had your swing bridge years ago but you may also like to look at bridges by Bendorsey kuid 210518. He has done a working swing footbridge kuid2:210518:1514:1 as well as other canal bridges.

keith

Thanks Keith I will look at the bridges by Bendorsey and download a few.
Tried downloading using cmp for the first time using tc3 and connected OK this time but not practical as on dial up.

Last time I tried that method was using 2004 with the other cmp. I have the route, main 3 canal locks, and boats I dowloaded earllier on plus invisible track etc, so have enough to give it a try.

Barry

[stagecoach]

At least with CMP you can stop the download at anytime and when you come back it will continue from where it stopped.

[Barry]

Got a far as opening the river Conway upto Trefriw wool mills.
Noticed a default water wheel mill in TC3 so that does nicely for now the early mill that was at trefriw. I
Just been looking at picture from internet of early postcard of Trefriw with the paddle steamer against quay c1909. There was also a slate quay there.
Have made a static slate crane a while ago and a static waterwheel mill but waiting to see if more for developments on the Blender exporter then may try and animate it.


Have my gaffrig2 boat set to max speed of 6 so just about right.
What I next need to do is find a drivable boat or train for 2006 level to download see the structure of the art files and config as no idea how to correct the art file errors at present. I can't alway understand the CCG or find the relevant bits.

P.S. Update.......The answer seems to be study the up to date locos in tc3.
Renamed my folders to asset_body, and asset_art and renamed files and config to match. Deleted the 512 art icon. Added the art thumbnail to config, etc and that seems to have cured the errors in cmp tc3, Also tried the latest build 2.8.

However to update to tc3 CCP still shows enginesound, hornsound, etc in local as red and crosses to delete 2 of them.
The usual content_create 1 shows as an error but it does on the content from others I looked at.
Also disable-extra-track-sounds 1
shows as an error.
However if I alter any of these "errors" it won't work.
Put the engine sound, etc into a kuid table but that didn't works so deleted that. Will study that bit a little more. Maybe thats the answer
Getting there.......gradually.

Barry

[Barry]

http://www.barandshe.clara.net/Trainz/conwayriver.jpg


I do not see any way to alter the so called erors in ccp for TC3 otherwise drivable boat won't work. These are auto_create 1.
horn sound, etec, are shown as local but outlined in red.
They all work fine and no errors show in CMP.
Without input they can stay as they are.

With static items such as Conway castle, made with Blender and using the beta exporter the only so called error is auto_create 1 but if removed doesn't show in Surveyor tab to enter into route. Again without input that stays put.

Hog is easy enough to use and Microdem and for my purpose for the route set in the period 1785-1800 channels at river systems courses probably were much different then and just needs the main features placing correctly.
I outlined the terrain with water but it requires a matt seabed otherwise it looks as if parts of the hull on boat is missing if left as transparent water.

So Conway needs its castle and walled town and Trefriw its watermill and possible slate quay but think that came later.

If this thread is found to be unsuitable for this forum just delete it.
Whether I continue with trainz depends on whether I can make historical routes interesting enough to suit my requirements at least until I get the next version of the Stentec sailing simulator and dem editor, or may continue with both.

Barry

[Mike10]

However to update to tc3 CCP still shows enginesound, hornsound, etc in local as red and crosses to delete 2 of them.
The usual content_create 1 shows as an error but it does on the content from others I looked at.
Also disable-extra-track-sounds 1
shows as an error.
However if I alter any of these "errors" it won't work.
Put the engine sound, etc into a kuid table but that didn't works so deleted that. Will study that bit a little more. Maybe thats the answer
Getting there.......gradually.

Barry

CCP is still not the best for the more complex type of object. For bridges and buildings and such like it is fine, but there are still many areas in which it could be improved unfortunately.

Mike.

[Barry]

Hello Mike I am probably taking too much notice.
Will fix for TC3, CMP and then see what CCP says, and unless easy to fix and still works, will leave it.
Maybe will become clearer for 2009/10.

Thanks

Barry

[Barry]

Spent quite a few weeks now and know what can be done with TC3 as regards content creation and dem scenery creation, also the limitations................. Decided my best plan is to wait until 2009 and maybe re-consider Trainz then, when content creation requirements will have become clearer and the future course of Trainz also clearer.......... Also the Blender beta exporter is currently work in progress. The latest version has just been released so again by the time 2009 Trainz appears I will have a better overall picture............. Will probably just continue revising my current 150 or so blend files and adding to them to see if still OK when exporting to vrml2 file types and to obj. (need a viewer for obj files if I can find one), as some are up to 3 or 4 years old............. The latest version of Blender is a bit different to previous versions, but no problems with vrml2 so far............... Waiting on the Stentec next version of sail simulator and dem. editor which should be quite good when it finally appears as they are specialists in water and air dynamics and make small boat navigational software and digital charts, etc. ............. Barry............................ (P.S. no paragraphs as forgot to enable java script using firefox)...................... Also forgot to add if using default content it needs to be available in each version as at present it varies with each trainz version.....................Not much point at present if say default content for textures or invisible track, suddenly vanishes in the next version, etc.........

[Barry]

Re OBJ viewer if testing obj files from Blender or other software just downloaded GLC player free software under GNU . Looks very interesting although only given it a quick try..................... Barry

[Barry]

Just thought I would bring my thread back for old times sake....Would be out of the question now for me to consider returning to Trainz and giant size patches and 6 meg textures have no part to play when on dial-up............ Another thread had a post complaining about boring threads. Its up to the forum members to create interesting threads as there is a always vast amount to discuss relating to all sorts of Trainz topics....... barry