LARS, PROTOLARS & MIN

[Dap]

LARS, PROTOLARS & Multiple Industries New - I have read the various threads and tutorials that are available but still have a few basic questions unanswered.

Will any freight car work with any of these systems? Or do I need a specific type car for each type system?

Will any of the various commodities on the DLS work with any of these systems?

Can I use all three of these systems on my layout or should I use only one?

What are the pros and cons of each system?

What does it take to create a new commodity?

[philskene]

Hi Dap --

LARS, PROTOLARS & Multiple Industries New - I have read the various threads and tutorials that are available ...

Have you read the tutorial in this package (mouse click on the link)?

http://rapidshare.com/files/97388922/PortOgden_1_Documentation.zip

It contains an overview and instructions for configuring LARS, ProtoLARS and MIN.

Will any freight car work with any of these systems? Or do I need a specific type car for each type system?

Any interactive freight car will work with all three systems. An interactive freight car is one that has been configured to load and unload products.

And yes, it can be difficult identifying which ones are interactive. Many on the Download Station have an icon in the thumbnail showing interactivity.

If you are using TRS2004/06, TrainzObjectz will also show which products a freight car has been configured to carry.

There is a section in my tutorial about configuring interactive freight cars.

Will any of the various commodities on the DLS work with any of these systems?

LARS and ProtoLARS interactive industry tracks are configured to load and unload defined products. My "LARS IndustRail", for example, is configured to load or unload over 70 industrial products.

MIN will load and unload ALL the products installed in your Trainz folder.

Can I use all three of these systems on my layout or should I use only one?

You can use all three.

What are the pros and cons of each system?

MIN can use all products that are available to Trainz. However, it is a bit more complex to set up, and products have to be directly related to particular freight cars. For example, if the MIN is configured to produce 20ft containers, these containers will only be loaded onto the particular type of freight car you nominate when configuring the MIN, for example, the PRR flat car.

LARS and ProtLARS are limited to a defined list of products, but will load and unload any and all freight cars that are configured to carry those products.

LARS is a bit easier to set up than ProtoLARS, but ProtoLARS can be configured to load and unload cars in sequence after a defined delay, and does not need a locomotive attached to the freight cars to function. Some consider ProtoLARS to be more prototypical. My tutorial provides more detail.

What does it take to create a new commodity?

I'll let others respond to this.

Phil

And welcome to the wonderful world of loads:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/nineercharlie/Loads/Load_18.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/nineercharlie/Loads/Load_23.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/nineercharlie/Loads/Load_26.jpg

[AussieNightcrawler]

Hi,

Phil, one thing if I may:

MIN can use all products that are available to Trainz. However, it is a bit more complex to set up, and products have to be directly related to particular freight cars. For example, if the MIN is configured to produce 20ft containers, these containers will only be loaded onto the particular type of freight car you nominate when configuring the MIN, for example, the PRR flat car.

True that you nominate one (1) freight car/wagon when you configure the M.I.N, in your example the PRR flat car, that does not mean that the M.I.N will ignore or skip all other wagons in the consist. I have setup an M.I.N before and nominated a wagon to use when configuring but have made up the consist with other wagons also and the M.I.N has loaded them all.

As long as the wagon can carry the product that you have configured the M.I.N for, it will load it.

Cheers... :)

[Dap]

Phil,

Thanks for your reply. You have cleared up several points of confusion. I have read your tutorial and I thank you for the effort you put into this informative article. None of the tutorials were clear on what cars would work with which system. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

So, if I use Protolars, I have to define what products that particular industry will use in the config file rather than in surveyor like I can do with MIN?

Seems liek Protolars will be the direction I go. I am modeling a prototype road and in most of the small towns, there are several industries on a single siding. Using MIN, when I try to spot a car at one industry, other cars in the train that happen to stop at another industy spot are unloading or loading. It was just not working for me.

Thanks again for your help.

[AussieNightcrawler]

M.I.N Tutorial:

http://members.westnet.com.au/nightcrawler/trainz/index.htm

Follow the links to the Tutorials in the Menu.

[Dap]

Hi,

Phil, one thing if I may:

True that you nominate one (1) freight car/wagon when you configure the M.I.N, in your example the PRR flat car, that does not mean that the M.I.N will ignore or skip all other wagons in the consist. I have setup an M.I.N before and nominated a wagon to use when configuring but have made up the consist with other wagons also and the M.I.N has loaded them all.

As long as the wagon can carry the product that you have configured the M.I.N for, it will load it.

Cheers... :)

Aussie,

You are so right. THat is what I have found to happen.

I have used MIN on all my industries (thanks for your tutorial), but I think it is time to change to ProtoLars . . .

Now, if we just had more advanced Freight Car Destination System (FCDS) than the TPR system, we could really operate a railroad. I envision a system that is set-up in Surveyor so that I don't have to spend the first 30 minutes of a driver session assigning a destination to every freight car.

If control right click can bring up the contents of a specific car, why can't that same window list its destination? And if that is done, why can't there be a list of multiple destinations rather than a single one (a set of destinations). And if that can be done, can the destinations be shown one at a time until checked off which would show the next destination when the window is opened again? And then one could create a library of destination sets from which one could select to assign to a car as needed. And this option would also be available in Driver mode when pulling a car from the empty track or an interchange track.

One other operations question. I am using LARSInterchange LT rev1.0. Any ideas if there are plans for a more heavy duty version. One in which you can set parameters such as all home road cars that are returned are to be empties? Nothing more frustration than to send a string of coal loads to a foreign road, only to have some of them come back full.

And if the above FCDS were made to work with the interchange, a destination set from the library could be automatically assigned to incoming traffic.

I have wondered a bit from the original theme of this thread, but hopefully I have not lost anyone.

[philskene]

Aussie --

"As long as the wagon can carry the product that you have configured the M.I.N for, it will load it."

I stand corrected - you are absolutely right.

I set up a little test track with both a UP flat car and a 6-axle depressed center well car. Both are configured to load a 20ft container.

I configured one MIN to load 20ft containers onto the UP flat and another MIN to unload the UP flat. The 6-axle depressed center loaded and unloaded too.

Dap --

"Using MIN, when I try to spot a car at one industry, other cars in the train that happen to stop at another industy spot are unloading or loading."

I then used the technique described on page 19 of my little tutorial.

" ... in Driver click on the Commodity Picker in the bottom right of the screen. ... If you do not want the car to either load (if empty) or unload (if loaded), select the icon that looks like a set of wheels with a cross through it, then click on the car. It will do nothing at an interactive industry."

Works a treat with the MIN for both loading and unloading.

Remember if you go the LARS/ProtoLARS path, you will need to make up your own interactive tracks to cater for your particular products. It ain't that difficult, but there's a bit of a learning curve.

Good luck,
Phil

[Dreadnought1]

One thing I have done with ProtoLARS is to set one PL to unload and send the product over to another for loading. Great if you're modelling a narrow gauge/standard gauge interchange (lumber comes in on the narrow and is unloaded, then is transferred to the standard and loaded) and it looks great if you set up an crane or transfer platform between the two adjacent tracks. It may not be animated but the loads move from one set of wagons to the other over time!

Another version of this I tested was bringing in one type of product to "make" another. I had an NG logging station where no logs were produced at one PL until General Goods (representing food and tools) had come in via another PL. You can't expect folks to work on an empty stomach...

The fact that the PLs can be set to take their time to load/unload makes these type of operations even better.

Cheers,
Dreadnought1

[Dap]

Aussie --

Dap -
"Using MIN, when I try to spot a car at one industry, other cars in the train that happen to stop at another industy spot are unloading or loading."

I then used the technique described on page 19 of my little tutorial.

" ... in Driver click on the Commodity Picker in the bottom right of the screen. ... If you do not want the car to either load (if empty) or unload (if loaded), select the icon that looks like a set of wheels with a cross through it, then click on the car. It will do nothing at an interactive industry."

Works a treat with the MIN for both loading and unloading.

Remember if you go the LARS/ProtoLARS path, you will need to make up your own interactive tracks to cater for your particular products. It ain't that difficult, but there's a bit of a learning curve.

Well, since I don't want Driver intervention to be needed, I think I will work my way up that learning curve and give ProtoLars a try.

Any thoughts on an advanced Freight Car Destination System ?

Dreadnaught,

I like your idea for a NG to StdG interchange, but how would one use this for a conventional interchange?

I tried to use Portals and AI to provide interchange service. I would set out cars to be picked up. Then have the foreign road train emmitted from a portal, drive to the interchange track, pick up the cars I had left and drop off new ones. Try as I may, I could not get this system to work reliably. Sometime it would work fine, but more often that not, the foreign road train would get hung up waiting for track clearence or just drive off to the portal without all of its train.

[AHSAN]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/nineercharlie/Loads/Load_26.jpg

Hello

@Phil Nice to see the Excavator on the flat car.:D :)

@AussieNightcrawler is your tutorial on your website not available in PDF format?

Regards

Ahsan:)
NAT Team

[ish6]

Hi All,

I'll be uploading the excavator as a product that can load and unload later today along with over 50 items ... it's the excavator that Phil is displaying on the flatbed rolling stock, along with many other visible products!

Thanks to Ahsan and Alien 3 for making these static and reskin objects!!

Now we can enjoy these into physical product ....

Ishie:hehe: :p

PS. Phil, what's the name of the rolling stock that holding the steel beam just about the excavator?!

[AussieNightcrawler]

Hello

@AussieNightcrawler is your tutorial on your website not available in PDF format?

Regards

Ahsan:)
NAT Team

Hi Ahsan,

Not as yet, have not had a real call for it as PDF, but can be done if wanted... :)

[Dap]

AHSAN,

I just copied Aussie's Tutorial and pasted it into a word document, then printed it out.

[philskene]

Hi ish --

Those cars are Prjindigo's (Roger Crouch) KRL hi-capacity freight cars (look for kuid 58377:15801 onwards on the Download Station - take care to get all the assets).

But remember, those on the Download Station are not industry interactive - I had to made a load attachment point myself to enable then to carry loads such as the plate girder (by Madeline Usher) and the excavator.

[ish6]

Hi ish --

Those cars are Prjindigo's (Roger Crouch) KRL hi-capacity freight cars (look for kuid 58377:15801 onwards on the Download Station - take care to get all the assets).

But remember, those on the Download Station are not industry interactive - I had to made a load attachment point myself to enable then to carry loads such as the plate girder (by Madeline Usher) and the excavator.

Hi Phil,

Thank you very much for the info ....

There reason I asked was because I am thinking of making some plate girder products for the next upload at the end of April -- I was thinking of variety of sizes!

Have you ever considered getting in contact with Roger? - He's a very helpful person, and mostly likely give you permission to upload such a rolling stock with the attachment point set up!!? (just a thought)

Either way, thank you Phil as always for the info -- and I'll PM about the next bunch of visible goodies for this month!! you might just like my list!!:p

Ishie

[Dreadnought1]

Dreadnaught,

I like your idea for a NG to StdG interchange, but how would one use this for a conventional interchange?

I tried to use Portals and AI to provide interchange service. I would set out cars to be picked up. Then have the foreign road train emmitted from a portal, drive to the interchange track, pick up the cars I had left and drop off new ones. Try as I may, I could not get this system to work reliably. Sometime it would work fine, but more often that not, the foreign road train would get hung up waiting for track clearence or just drive off to the portal without all of its train.

That sounds more like a track design or signalling issue (such as allowing sufficient distance between loaders/junctions/signals/portals) than a Industry/Portal specific problem.

If you're interested in a interchange setup, you can also try the "LARS Interchange IT" available at the TPR Download depot. I've tried it out and it can - and does - randomise loading/unloading so you can end up with some interesting situations. Because of the random "return" of wagons (not as in time, but as in which wagons, how many and their loading), user intervention would definitely be needed to sort things out.

Cheers,
Dreadnought1

[AHSAN]

AHSAN,

I just copied Aussie's Tutorial and pasted it into a word document, then printed it out.

Hello

Any chance can you e-mail a copy over?

admin(AT)ahsanstrainz.co.uk

Regards

Ahsan:)
NAT Team

[Midland]

A very helpful thread this one!

I've read it through several times and I can't see my question anywhere so here it is:

With the three types of industry track is it possible to set up one of them to:

1/ Unload one type of product and load another?

2/ Unload two different products?

If my memory serves me right this particularly applies to ProtoLARS but it would be useful to know how the other two function in this respect.

Just to be clear about this I am talking about one individual industry track completing those tasks. I know how to do it with several tracks (one for ingoods one for outgoods) but I can't seem to get both functions into one item.




Cheers

Nix

[philskene]

Hi Nix --

Yes to both questions.

And yes to load two different products.

And yes to load/unload more than two different products.

Applies to LARS, ProtoLARS and MIN.

Phil

[Midland]

Okay thanks Phil.

The reason I asked is coz I'm having difficulties configuring your VanDenH steelworks. Most of the bits work alright but the ore unloading ramp is giving me hassles. You have a ProtoLARS Aggregates at the top of the ramp which I seem to be able to only get Iron Ore unloaded. Alongside it on the ground you have an industry that demands coal (power station or something) and no matter what I set that to it will not unload. I'm using the Ore Hopper ATSF empty (silly name that!) loaded with iron ore and the UP 3 bay loaded with coal. Somehow I want to get limestone aggregate into the equation as well!

The map is helpful to a point but perhaps you could explain where you envisaged the products being unloaded in the ore yard?

I also got a little confused over the scrap metal handling. It looks like you have a dump of scrap metal there which gets taken to the Basic Oxygen Furnace for unloading. Do you get scrap delivered from various other locations and then dumped on the steelworks scrap pile? If that is the case presumably a switching service loads cars at the scrap pile and unloads at the furnace. In the past in other sessions we've railed the scrap from elsewhere and dumped it at the furnace as soon as it gets there.

The steel slab loading is self explanatory except that you have steel coils there as well so I presume steel coil gets produced there. The hot steel slabs go over to the Steel Mill where there is a ProtoLARS to unload it. Presumably whatever steel product comes out of the Steel Mill gets loaded out via that same ProtoLARS.

You can see where a simpleton like myself would get muddled! :confused:

BTW the steelworks is an improvement over the original but I have my doubts about the trees there! Maybe management are trying to do their bit for global warming! :hehe:

You also want to try loading out car loads of new rails from the Long Products Mill; there ain't a lot of room there especially if there are tankers at the Fuel Point! :'(

The area where the general goods loadout is situated is also nice looking. It seems much tighter and "grittier".

All in all I'm thoroughly enjoying your Port Ogden.




Cheers

Nix

[philskene]

Hi Nix --

I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition. But then nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZQI0Xm29To

The Steel Works:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b392/nineercharlie/PON%201/06_1.jpg

That power station building, "PowerHouseNS", never worked correctly for me. For some reason the coal always refused to unload properly.

So, I've provided two options for unloading iron ore, coal (actually, real blast furnaces use coke, but there is no room here for a coking plant) and limestone into the mixing area at the base of the conveyor feed into the blast furnaces:
Either at the the slightly raised level - ProtoLARS.
Or at ground level - LARS.

Take your choice, but if configuring the raised level make sure to mouse click the ProtoLARS, not the PowerHouseNS.

The large Conveyor Gantry is intended to serve the iron ore and limestone storage area.

Further along at both raised and ground level is another LARS and another ProtoLARS tracks for loading and unloading scrap.
_____

The way that I see the Steel Works operating is:

Trainz dump iron ore, coal and limestone into the mixing area (from the raised or ground level).

This is converted into liquid iron in the Blast Furnaces.

The liquid iron is taken to the Continuous Process Strip Mill (the Basic Oxygen Furnace), the upper level in those torpedo cars, together with scrap metal.

Here it is converted into steel slab (yes, for reasons unknown I know Maddy placed steel coil at the loading point).

The slab steel is taken to the Steel Mill and Long Products Mill, where it is milled into a range of products. And yes, the Long Products is tight - but that's part the challenge!

Scrap metal originates either from outside (the Armour transfer Yard), or Steptoe's at Port Ogden South.
_____

I've just tested the iron ore, coal and scrap LARS and ProtoLARS using Maddy's WL&G mill gondola, which is configured to carry all three.

It all works perfectly !~!

I could save and e-mail it to you if you wish?

Phil

Edit:
The trees? Well, in today's environment, one can never be too green.

[ish6]

Hi Phil,

I read your entire post and you have given me a couple of ideas for future visible product!!

Just a side note that wiley4 upload an entire industrial active with rolling stock as well that load and unloads of ore -- I've made the billboards and sign for it! (that was a few months back)

I've also made 5 different type of ore with the texture and rolling stocks that loads -- and I might release those in the end of the month!!

Just a few wild notes!
Sorry for the off topic guys!
Ishie :D

[Dap]

That sounds more like a track design or signalling issue (such as allowing sufficient distance between loaders/junctions/signals/portals) than a Industry/Portal specific problem.

If you're interested in a interchange setup, you can also try the "LARS Interchange IT" available at the TPR Download depot. I've tried it out and it can - and does - randomise loading/unloading so you can end up with some interesting situations. Because of the random "return" of wagons (not as in time, but as in which wagons, how many and their loading), user intervention would definitely be needed to sort things out.

Cheers,
Dreadnought1

Dreadnaught,

It is definately an AI problem. I have tweeked everything else, spend weeks on the forums getting input and changing things. I will probably have to switch to SCS2006 to get the reliability that I want. I know that is a steep learning curve project and I am putting it off 'till later.

I am using the LARS Interchange LT. I was not aware of an "IT" version. How is it different from "LT"?

[Midland]

Thank you very much for that Phil, it is completely clear and makes perfect sense and not only that but it works too. Yay! :D

I remember a session you did ages ago for the Industrail layout where that little diesel shunter supplied the oxygen furnace. Scrap metal and liquid iron was used in that session too.

What was mucking me up (my brain too) at VanDenH was that dratted NSPowerhouse which for me too completely failed to unload any kind of coal conveyance.

The only thing I missed picking up was that hot slab is taken to the Long Products Mill (which does makes sense after all) as well as the Steel Mill. I must arrange a switcher to do that.

Does the railroad deliver oxygen to the furnace? What do you use for that? I haven't really bothered with that so far but I'm open to it.

Anyway thanks for clearing that up and for the link. I haven't seen that sketch for yonks. :hehe:





Cheers

Nix


Edit:

I notice in the Steel Mill there is the ProtoLARS for unloading hot slab and loading whatever it produces but what is the adjacent LARS Aggregates for?

[Dap]

A very helpful thread this one!

I've read it through several times and I can't see my question anywhere so here it is:

With the three types of industry track is it possible to set up one of them to:

1/ Unload one type of product and load another?

2/ Unload two different products?
. . . .

Cheers

Nix


This brings up one other option. Load and unload the same product. For example, my railroad is a 1900 shortline that stops at every small town. Each station handles Baggage, Express Product, Mail Bags and, Milk Churns(which are improperly labeled, should be Milk Cans. A churn is used to make butter.).
I have each station set up for load and unload of each of these items. Is there a way to randomize the load and unload quantities? Or determine whether to load or unload based on train direction? This would be great for the Milk Cans. They all get picked up on the morning westbound and are set off empty on the evening eastbound.

[Dreadnought1]

Dreadnaught,

It is definately an AI problem. I have tweeked everything else, spend weeks on the forums getting input and changing things. I will probably have to switch to SCS2006 to get the reliability that I want. I know that is a steep learning curve project and I am putting it off 'till later.

I am using the LARS Interchange LT. I was not aware of an "IT" version. How is it different from "LT"?

A typo on my part is the difference, my bad!

Cheers,
Dreadnought1

[Midland]

I notice in LARS there are a number of fields to be filled in:

Amount, which I guess means the total amount of a product to be produced/consumed.

Initial, which I guess means the amount of a product already in the area to be produced/consumed.

Rate. What is this one please?




Cheers

Nix

[AHSAN]

Hi Ahsan,

Not as yet, have not had a real call for it as PDF, but can be done if wanted... :)

Hello AussieNightcrawler

It will be very appreciated if you can do one in PDF format.:)

@philskene I have downloaded a number of your routes in the past, I must say the work is outstanding.:) :D what is your latest and most updated industrial route on the DLS? and are all dependencies for the route on the DLS?

Regards

Ahsan:)
NAT Team

[philskene]

Nix --

"I remember a session you did ages ago for the Industrail layout where that little diesel shunter supplied the oxygen furnace."

Yes that was one of the earlier versions of IndustRail. From memory that little diesel shunter was very, very skittish.

"Does the railroad deliver oxygen to the furnace? What do you use for that? I haven't really bothered with that so far but I'm open to it."

In real life I'm not sure. I do recall reading somewhere that with the closure of the Newcastle (New South Wales) steel works, the plant that produced oxygen was dismantled and moved to the steel works at Whyalla (South Australia). So my guess is that most oxygen plants would be very close to the steel works, and the oxygen trucked in by road.

I'm not sure how it's done, but I would imagine that by compressing and chilling air, the oxygen, nitrogen and trace gases are distilled out.

"I notice in the Steel Mill there is the ProtoLARS for unloading hot slab and loading whatever it produces but what is the adjacent LARS Aggregates for?"

The LARS Aggregates is a mistake. It should have been LARS IndustRail. There's a couple of other niggling little errors too, but in a route this size I find it very difficult to make it perfect. If there ever is version 2 ... .

Dap --

"Load and unload the same product."

The difficulty here is that the same freight car will load/unload, then immediately unload/load. I'm not sure if there is a way around this.

"Or determine whether to load or unload based on train direction?"

As long as you are not using AI control, you can always designate the freight car to be interactive or not (on page whatever it was in my tutorial).

AHSAN --

"I have downloaded a number of your routes in the past, I must say the work is outstanding."

Many thanks. Appreciated.

"What is your latest and most updated industrial route on the DLS? and are all dependencies for the route on the DLS?"

IndustRail 1b is the latest. A revised version of a structure caused an error message with the earlier version of the same structure that was used in 1a. I thought it best to release an update before Nix got too carried away making sessions for 1a. But now he's abandoned it for Port Ogden & Northern ... .

Yes, all the dependencies for the route are on the Download Station. Guaranteed.

Phil

[Midland]

Thanks Phil; I have had enough issues with sessions to understand that things sometimes slip by! :hehe:

Out of general interest chasps, I have programmed cars to deliver double stacked 40' containers to a ProtoLARS to be unloaded and for those same cars to be reloaded with 20' tank containers at the same ProtoLARS track.

1 Programme the ProtoLARS to consume 40' containers.

2 Programme the ProtoLARS to produce 20' tank containers.

3 Programme the econo car (just happened to be the one I was using but any car would work) to be loaded with double stacked 40' containers.

4 Programme the econo car to accept 20' tank containers.


Bingo!

I made a rake of four of them, drove them up to the ProtoLARS, waited the one minute delay and then one by one the cars unloaded. After the last car was unloaded the first car loaded with the tank containers and so on until they were all loaded. It's brilliant. I haven't tried it with other products (yet) but I have no reason to think that they won't work.

This is so cool!

The reason I asked what Rate meant was because I was wondering if there was a way to tinker with the product production so that it would generate product slowly thus loading cars in a way similar to how the ProtoLARS does. Apart from rapid loading/unloading of aggregates I don't like the idea of 20 cars being driven to a container terminal and all being loaded in the blink of an eye! In real life there is often a time consuming wait while cars are loaded.



Cheers

Nix