Signalling Dilemma

[Mick_Berg]

Can anyone think of a solution to this - on my little branch line the locos run round the train at each terminus. If I put a signal at the junction that is used for the locos to run round, when the loco goes through the junction, TRS sees the train (coaches) as a separate consist, sets the signal to red, and won't let the loco recouple to the train.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Mick Berg.

[worthless]

The "Run around train" command in Driver achieves this. I have found that sometimes you need to a little adjusting of distances, but AI driver is quite prepared to pass a red light to get back to his train.

I have found that problems arise if the driver has to make a complex manoeuvre when running around, particularly if he has to go through two signalled junctions in the same direction. The other problem is where you leave insufficient space at the end of the line for the driver to be sufficiently clear of the junction for the points (switch) to change. This might necessitate changing the trigger radius.

Hope this helps

Peter

PS - another possible solution is to instruct the driver to decouple from the consist and then "couple to" the vehicle at the other end.

[DeRiCo]

Hi Mick.

I was working on a route yesterday that needed a runaround of a short train in a loco depot that had no signals at the junctions at either end.

To my surprise it actually worked ok. Even when the loco had to drive toward the other end of the train it ran at a faster speed than the usual 1 kmh as it does after passing a red signal.

Of course this may not help if your runaround is on a main line area where you need signals, but I was surprised it worked so good when usually it gives problems without signals.

Dennis

[lewisner]

Mick Berg, try installing an Invisible Signal so that when the Driver is backing onto the train/consist he can see the Signal just a few feet form the end of the train.

[Mick_Berg]

Mick Berg, try installing an Invisible Signal so that when the Driver is backing onto the train/consist he can see the Signal just a few feet form the end of the train.
Thanks everyone, I'll try these suggestions.
It all works fine without signals, but I want to have my route signalled, (they are essential for realism) and if you leave out certain signals, you get errors like "track ahead is unsignalled" and the previous signal stays at red.
BTW I wish I knew of a way to find out exactly how my original line was signalled, all I can do is look at a few photos and guess the rest.
Mick Berg.

[nicky9499]

yes the AI in TRS is intelligent to run without signals. I finished my new route a few days ago and tried running it without signals. The trains don't crash or seem to have problems.

The other problem is where you leave insufficient space at the end of the line for the driver to be sufficiently clear of the junction for the points (switch) to change. This might necessitate changing the trigger radius.

How do i adjust the turnout trigger radius? it also bothers me sometimes when i have to move my train very far away from a turnout to change it. ><

[lewisner]

I"m just recovering from a major Trainz catastrophe, but it would be useful if you posted a screenie showing the layout you want to signal.I"ve signalled my own prototypical layout as near as possible as per the original and I"ve generally found that Trainz AI is happy with this provided you include a few extra Invisible Signals and Red Trackmarks so that it has a clearer understanding of what it has to do.

[nicky9499]

ahh yes this reminds me of another question I had in mind.

although I would be happy to draw out a diagram of my layout, yards and all, I was wondering it there was another method to getting the entire network on a screenshot or picture or something. i cannot use the map and take a screenshot because the route is at least 20 baseboards long.

[lewisner]

You can do that by opening Mini Map and zooming in or out to show the part of the Map you want.Then press "Print Screen".This saves the Screen to you Clipboard.Open Paint or whatever photo program you have (E.G Adobe Photoshop) then click "Paste As New Image". If you"re happy with it, click "Save As" then select "Jpeg" from the list of file types.Give the shot a name and save it to My Pictures.Then you need to use Imageshack or Photobucket to Upload it here but thats another story.....:p

[nicky9499]

*throws hands up in surrender*

I've had it with the signalling part. I've laid over 30 miles of track, industries, nice scenery and all, but I can't signal the route. The AI trains ignore the reds, derail each other, stop for nothing, crash my game, and I still don't have a single idea on how to signal properly. No intention of flaming anything or anyone here, but I'm sure you won't feel good with a pretty route without any functionality whatsoever. It's pretty ironic, how Auran has such an intelligent AI (like which other simulator even comes CLOSE to this?) with nice signals and all, but doesn't give the slightest idea on how to use them. And no, the manual does NOT help at all by going

"Careful placement of signals will allow you to operate complex operations
involving several moving consists without incident."

:(

[rroby]

Give this site a look.

http://trains.0catch.com/tutorial.html

It's helped me with signalling

[nicky9499]

yes read that quite long ago but still confused. ><

[lewisner]

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8890/runroundloop1zv5.jpg

[lewisner]

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6159/runroundloop2yq0.jpg

[lewisner]

OK...In shot 1 we see the throat of the station.You give the Driver the instruction "Drive to Dingley Dell Platform" and he arrives at the station and pulls up to the Red Trackmark.You then tell him "Run Round Train".He decouples and drives into the Headshunt between Points Y and the buffers.The distance between Points Y and the buffers should be AT LEAST 20 Metres + Length of Loco + 20 Metres.The loco uses the Runround Loop.Note that this has a Yellow Trackmark so it can only be used in one direction.The Driver will pause for a while at Points X then couple to the train at slow speed and he is then ready to depart.I set this up to use an Austerity Tank loco and 2 coaches.The distance between Trackmark Dingley Dell Platform should be a couple of feet over the length of the complete train i.e loco + coaches.Also note that at Dingley Dell Couple there are an Invisible Signal and a Trackmark, and the same at the buffers. I"ve tested this and it works perfectly....Any questions? :p

[Mick_Berg]

Lewisner, my route is pretty much the same as Dingley Dell, it's that simple. I'll try your suggestions.
And how do you change the trigger radius of a signal? I wasn't aware that you could.
Thanks,
Mick Berg.

[lewisner]

Mick if you set your route up as I have done it CANNOT fail = Trainz AI runs by the same rules, although obviously if you want to use US signals you have to substitute them for the UK examples I"ve used.As for altering the radii of signals, I"ve done it for Buffers/Railends and as far as I remember you do it in Explorer- but in my example you don"t need to.The only important thing is that the train loco must have space in the Headshunt to clear the Points.The Invisible Signals serve to let the AI know it has a clear run through to the Buffers.Let me know how you get on!....:p

[Mick_Berg]

The distance between Trackmark Dingley Dell Platform ...............Also note that at Dingley Dell Couple there are an Invisible Signal and a Trackmark, and the same at the buffers. I"ve tested this and it works perfectly....Any questions? :p

Yes, some questions....
First you say "the distance between trackmark Dingley Dell Platform should be a couple of feet over....." - between D.D.P. and what?
Second, why have trackmarks Dingley Dell Couple, and at the buffers, if they are not referenced in the Driver instructions?
Third, I read from somewhere reliable (Paul Hobbs maybe) that a buffer acts as a signal. So is the invisible signal at the buffers necessary?
None of this is criticism, I appreciate your help.
Thanks,
Mick Berg.

[Mick_Berg]

Lewisner, we never heard back from you with answers to my questions about Dingley Dell.

I've settled for this solution to my runaround problems; I have no signals in the area of the runarounds. This actually fits my prototypical route quite well, as there were no signals in the area, because the points were operated by the train guard from a small local frame. The AI handles this very well, in fact, two locos will run around their trains at the same time over the same tracks, cleverly avoiding each other. (And yet at other times, the AI fails completely, getting completely stuck on a very simple manouvre like backing out of a siding!)
Thanks,
Mick Berg.

[lewisner]

Bumping up

[nicky9499]

Sounds feasible, and I'm going to try it now.

However, I'm trying to use a simple, unsignalled turnaround loop (which has worked flawlessly for so many other stations) to turn the train around.

[nicky9499]

Some other people on the forum have mentioned using the Run_Around_Ext command on double headed trains. Do you guys think it'll work in this case?

[lewisner]

I"ve done a modification to my Dingley Dell test route to include a siding so that a 2nd loco can couple to the train "Boiler first" and the 2 locos are quite happy to double head the train.Incidentally, the reasons why I didn"t continue this thread originally was that A) I"m on Dialup so posting screenies takes a VERY long time. B) Setting up the route took about an hour for no benefit to myself .C) Its possible to take away various elements of the layout and it"ll still work - for instance you can replace all Signals with Invisible Signals - but the point is it DOES work.

[Dreadnought1]

Yes, some questions....
[clipped]
Second, why have trackmarks Dingley Dell Couple, and at the buffers, if they are not referenced in the Driver instructions?
Third, I read from somewhere reliable (Paul Hobbs maybe) that a buffer acts as a signal. So is the invisible signal at the buffers necessary?
None of this is criticism, I appreciate your help.
Thanks,
Mick Berg.

I have to say that the purpose of the extra trackmarks intrigues me but I can answer the question about the buffers (track ends).

Whether the "end of line" marker is a buffer, bumper, a pile of sleepers/ties, a timber baulk, a big hydraulic "train stopper" or whatever, not all of them are set up as signals so you do have to check. The name of the asset sometimes indicates the status (some creators have included "no signal" or something similar in the asset name) but I usually check in the Surveyor map mode as the signal-type trackends will show up as a red light on the map while a non-signal track end will show up as a small green square. You can also run the cursor over them in Surveyor and the signal information will pop-up if it's a signal but that's not always reliable (it could be just facing the wrong way...)

Do be careful with the sleeper/tie/baulk types as they are usually directional and it's not always easy to tell which direction they're facing.

I also usually put a low speed invisible speed board (5mph/8kph) about 30yds/30m from the track end and an invisible signal about 10m/10yds from the end so Trainz can use almost all of the track - they don't 'see' the track-end signal until they pass the invisible signal and thus they can get closer to the track end... Of course, these distances will vary depending on the likely speed of your trainz.

Cheers,
Dreadnought1

[Mick_Berg]

B) Setting up the route took about an hour for no benefit to myself ..
Surely, there is a benefit to yourself, you are helping other Trainz users and that must give you good karma. Thanks for all the tips.
Mick Berg.

[lewisner]

Sorry if I sounded like a grouch Mick, of course it was of benefit to me because only by thinking about problems like this can I sort them out when I need to.Heres a screeny of the setup with the loco siding.Ignore the double track; its irrelevant to the terminus.To work this layout , you instuct the incoming train to "Drive To Trackmark" "Dingley Dell Platform" then "Decouple" then "Drive To Trackmark" "Dingley Dell Runround Loop" and if required "Wait for (say) 10 minutes" then "Drive To Trackmark" "Dingley Dell Loco Siding".When loco 1 is sitting in the runround loop, you instruct Loco 2 (from the loco siding) to "Drive To Trackmark" "Dingley Dell Couple" and "Couple To" the Rear coach.Thus , your train can depart with the loco facing in the right direction.The signal allowing the train to depart from the platform towards the main line is not essential, but is PROTOTYPICAL if you wish to have a correctly signalled layout................:cool: http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6728/dingleydelllocosidingcg7.jpg