N3V Needs to support pre-SP1 users with DLC

nathanmallard

Active member
Many have said this time and time again, but N3V's response is always "New DLC packs will only work in TS2012 SP1". This is not enough, action needs to be taken as only a very small number of users have upgraded (downgraded?) to SP1 due to the many bugs and also the unwanted and unneeded copy protection. At the moment, only a very small number of users have it. Also, there have been numerous cases of users buying the NKP pack who were unaware of the SP1 requirement. Again, the responses from N3V in the pack's release thread have been less than helpful. N3V need to address this issue quickly as most TS2012/10 users (including me) are unwilling to apply a patch which may damage their game just to get some new DLC. I hope N3V rectify the problem before the shortly upcoming release of the LMS Potteries Loop Line, as UK users who have SP1 (at least the ones that are active on the forums) can probably be counted on the fingers. I suggest the SP1-only prerequisite is scrapped until TS2014 is released. I also suggest that the NKP pack is emailed to those who bought it and only realised it was SP1-only after their purchase or they get a full refund.
 
Slightly off topic, but this raises the recently discussed question of growing Trainz to 64bit and or changing the graphics engine.
N3V's reply for not taking this path is based around keeping 'legacy users' in the loop, i.e. older users not being disadvantaged.
This problem with DLC - SP1 appears to go against that trend. Upgrade, or fall off the Trainz wagon.

Bob (CRO0
 
If you don't want to upgrade to SP1, you could buy a second PC and upgrade that installation to SP1 ... or install a SP1 patched version on an external hard drive ... or if your PC is big enough, install 2 versions of TS12 on the hard drive (one patched ... the other unpatched).

To me increasing the trainzbuild lines in a config file is a way to intentionaly sabotage older content, and disable content, and force people to buy another higher version of Trainz.

I think that all trainzbuild all config file lines should have never gone beyond TRS2006 (trainzbuild 2.6), as the only thing that increasing th trainzbuild line tag is to purposely sabotage earlier versions ... to increase sales of upgraded versions.

I have backdated TS12 assets and they work just fine in TRS2006.
 
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As for Amigacooke's question: http://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...hat-TS12-version-are-you-using&highlight=poll A quick look here will confirm my claim. The are some happy SP1 users, (again a look at that thread will confirm that) but the majority of users who have it experience bugs and other gremlins.

You can't go by a forum poll and get any definitive conclusion either way. It's not a large enough sample of the userbase. All it will tell you is what the people who read the forum have done, not what the majority of Trainz users have done.
 
My PC is barely able to handle TS2010 (which is the only Trainz I use now - the best version to date!), let alone two TS12's. Buying a new PC so I can run SP1 is simply unaffordable, anyway, I'm happy with the Trainz I've got, I'm just unhappy with the lack of DLC support for a fairly recent version!
 
As for Amigacooke's question: http://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...hat-TS12-version-are-you-using&highlight=poll A quick look here will confirm my claim. The are some happy SP1 users, (again a look at that thread will confirm that) but the majority of users who have it experience bugs and other gremlins.

As much as I dislike SP1 and the direction N3V is taking - I will no longer purchase N3V products, including Trainz, DLC, etc and am no longer uploading to the DLS - online polls don't tell you much. Odds are, the majority of non-Steam users (who have patches forced on them) probably aren't even aware of it, especially the casual users who only occasionally fire up the game.

Only N3V might have semi-accurate data, based on pings to their servers identifying different versions. The flipside is that any pings do not necessarily account for multiple versions, people who roll back, amount of use, and (obviously) do not account for offline use. I even have one version of SP1 (actually as a beta, since I was in the beta program) running offline, though I don't run it too often for building or running trains.

That said, N3V had better be prepared for an exodus, however small, of not only purchasers, but content creators, all because they really think they're losing sales in countries where the game costs 20% and the DLC 10% of the average monthly salary. :smh:
 
You mean that post with this as first line?
So your evidence that only a small group of people is using TS12SP1 is a poll that shows that 47 users are using TS12SP1+ and only 27 people are still using 49922 (for a total of 74 votes at the moment of writing this reply)?
No offence, but did you just proof yourself wrong?

Only N3V might have semi-accurate data, based on pings to their servers identifying different versions. The flipside is that any pings do not necessarily account for multiple versions, people who roll back, amount of use, and (obviously) do not account for offline use.
I agree, and I doubt they are willing to share these numbers, even if they would somehow proof the OP is right or wrong with his guess. To bad; as someone earning his income in the world of Business Intelligence I would love to dig around in any data they have.

The complainers post, those who are happy generally do not. Add to that the common practice of people preferring to stay with the old and known instead of the new and unknown and you get a lot of noise that may or may not give a real view of the actual situation. Loads of people still love 2006 where I hope the majority agrees at least one of the versions after that is better. And sometimes you have to take a step back or sideways in order to move forward :).
 
Yeah, have to admit, even though I've had my fair share of problems with SP1 (although it is now the version I use primarily) ... I'd much rather see N3V focus on fixing the SP1 problems and moving forward with it.
 
Many have said this time and time again, but N3V's response is always "New DLC packs will only work in TS2012 SP1". This is not enough, action needs to be taken as only a very small number of users have upgraded (downgraded?) to SP1 due to the many bugs and also the unwanted and unneeded copy protection. At the moment, only a very small number of users have it. Also, there have been numerous cases of users buying the NKP pack who were unaware of the SP1 requirement. Again, the responses from N3V in the pack's release thread have been less than helpful. N3V need to address this issue quickly as most TS2012/10 users (including me) are unwilling to apply a patch which may damage their game just to get some new DLC. I hope N3V rectify the problem before the shortly upcoming release of the LMS Potteries Loop Line, as UK users who have SP1 (at least the ones that are active on the forums) can probably be counted on the fingers. I suggest the SP1-only prerequisite is scrapped until TS2014 is released. I also suggest that the NKP pack is emailed to those who bought it and only realised it was SP1-only after their purchase or they get a full refund.

Okay, I'll bite.

SP1 is still full of issues / problems even with HF3 but what version, honestly, of Trainz hasn't been rife with issues? Eventually they get "stable" and some versions work better than others but for every version I've owned (even the ones you don't see on my tag line above) have had bugs. What N3V needs to not lose sight of is backward compatibility because it's the content that drives Trainz, not the engine.

There are serious flaws with this system, but there's also benefits otherwise why would people still work with it?

N3V needs to start phasing changes in and letting people know of new policy decisions. Enough of the "surprise! we changed things and didn't tell anybody else!" schtick. That mentality is rampant in the decisions or lack thereof that I've seen post Auran. I honestly think somebody wakes up and asks "Which way is it pointing?" and then that's the direction they head for the rest of the day. That's no way to plan and design a system. Sorry if that seems belittling but it's to make a point: I don't think they have a plan or a roadmap for Trainz. If I'm wrong on this, I'm sorry but I would love to see somebody from N3V put out a brief roadmap as to next Service Pack releases or next major release date. That would at least show me that somebody at N3V is doing honest to goodness planning that shows that this is treated like a product with deadlines. Or is N3V run in happenstance mode or is there thorough testing? I'm thinking it's closer to "It compiles, ship it" which is disquieting on many, many levels.

The NKP DLC announcement indicated SP1 of TS2012 was a pre-requisite, it was in the fine print. If you want your money back, ask for it. If they won't refund, talk to your credit card company.

As for the DLC needing to be supported on older revisions, it's up to N3V to evolve their product, but they shouldn't spring things on their community. I guess they figure irritating their most loyal fans is a good thing? They should support DLC that was available for that prior release but like all software, there has to be limits on how long they can support it. Even Windows XP has a shelf life and I don't believe that N3V and the handful of folks who are Trainz have the resources Microsoft has, not even close.
Why? They have enough problems with existing DLC now; some of it's good and stable but others like Murchison 2 for example is riddled with bugs and all I get from support is "we're aware and will address address it in the future." For all I know that could be 20 years from now or never if N3V goes Tango Uniform; let's not forget that happened nearly with this franchise and Auran. I realize that Support is in a bad spot here too because I can hear Zec probably laughing every time I open a new Murchison 2 ticket, because there have been a few lately but I just want what I purchased, great content that's not buggy. For me, that means if I don't see any fixes for what I've already purchased, then why would I be enticed to by any further DLC from N3V?

I realize that N3V will read this but it bemuses me if they honestly get the fact that there are people who are willing to buy their content if it worked, properly and wasn't bug ridden or full of spelling mistakes. I'm willing to live with a bug or two, just tell me when it will be fixed, that's all. An answer like "We'll address this in our next service release which is slated for Q3 2013" or something like that. But you can't even get that from N3V right now. Hello N3V? Is the CEO, your former Auran CFO listening to this? Customer Here, willing to spend money for DLC that works from a company that fixes the problems and at least can commit to its customers... Hello? Anybody? Graham, Chris are you listening?

If they are unwilling or unable to give you a commitment to when issues will be resolved why continue to buy from them? Go grab a copy of TS2010 and go to the other third party content providers out there who make routes and trains for Trainz. Money talks as they say, why not support them if you're not happy with DLC from N3V?
 
Many have said this time and time again, but N3V's response is always "New DLC packs will only work in TS2012 SP1". This is not enough, action needs to be taken as only a very small number of users have upgraded (downgraded?) to SP1 due to the many bugs and also the unwanted and unneeded copy protection. At the moment, only a very small number of users have it. Also, there have been numerous cases of users buying the NKP pack who were unaware of the SP1 requirement. Again, the responses from N3V in the pack's release thread have been less than helpful. N3V need to address this issue quickly as most TS2012/10 users (including me) are unwilling to apply a patch which may damage their game just to get some new DLC. I hope N3V rectify the problem before the shortly upcoming release of the LMS Potteries Loop Line, as UK users who have SP1 (at least the ones that are active on the forums) can probably be counted on the fingers. I suggest the SP1-only prerequisite is scrapped until TS2014 is released. I also suggest that the NKP pack is emailed to those who bought it and only realised it was SP1-only after their purchase or they get a full refund.

As has been said quite a few times now, we have no plans to offer any future DLC packs via the old DLC system. There are many issues with the old DLC system which we have fixed in the new DLC system, and as such we will not be going back to the old system.

We do make it extremely clear in our shop what the minimum requirements are for the new packs, specifically that they required Trainz Simulator 12 SP1 or newer to function/install. If your Trainz/system does not meet the minimum requirements, we will not provide a refund. It is your responsibility to ensure that your Trainz installation or system does meet the minimum requirements before purchase.

Regards
 
My god people, No one in the Trainz community must haveever updated a version of Windows or any other product. I just updated toWindows 8.1 on another machine and it is riddled with problems. This is MICROSOFT for god's sake!!! The largest software developer on the planet. How can a small company like N3V manage to release a error free package? Does anyone have any idea how many different configurations there are on every single computer on every single user in the Trainz community. There is no way to make everyone happy.

On the point of making the pack available for Pre-SP1, I think you have to make a business decision on whether to release two packages and have to manage and keep up with both or manage the one. Everyone quitting, stop buying equipment, or contributing to the DLS is not the answer. Where else are you going to go?

They will stable it up, create a new SP2, make problem and stable it up, make a new package, and on it goes. That is the way of software development.

Just for kicks, someone count the number update, fixes, patches, and service packs there have been for Windows 7?

David
 
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The complainers post, those who are happy generally do not. Add to that the common practice of people preferring to stay with the old and known instead of the new and unknown and you get a lot of noise that may or may not give a real view of the actual situation. Loads of people still love 2006 where I hope the majority agrees at least one of the versions after that is better. And sometimes you have to take a step back or sideways in order to move forward :).

Well, thanks, but it's more of the polling method to which I object.
 
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The NKP DLC announcement indicated SP1 of TS2012 was a pre-requisite, it was in the fine print. If you want your money back, ask for it. If they won't refund, talk to your credit card company.

In this case however it's not just the the fine print.
It's also in a big red box in the middle of the purchase page
Requires Trainz Simulator 12 SP1 or above to be installed
.To be fair you can hardly blame N3V for customers who can't read. http://www.simulatorcentral.com/index.php/nkp-high-speed-freight.html
 
(continued from above) SP1 is definitely a deal-breaker for many, and there are quite a few loyal customers (and I'm sure there are far more than those I know of and have corresponded with privately) who are done with buying new versions if not done with content creation entirely, and many of us fall in varying degrees towards the latter. The reasons may vary, of course, as they usually do. And, the flip-side of the argument about the "complainers complaining", as far as software goes, is that only a small percentage of people bother to complain; the vast majority, if they have a problem, just move on to something else, as probably all of us have done with a software package that does not meet our standards or is too annoying to be worth the energy of dealing with. That's why I didn't join the Trainz community until more than five years after I bought UTC in the bargain bin at Staples...and four years after I tried it. :/

Edit: I split my prior post into two so as not to appear critical of another poster, and because I may have given a wrong impression of SP1.
 
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Slightly off topic, but this raises the recently discussed question of growing Trainz to 64bit and or changing the graphics engine.
N3V's reply for not taking this path is based around keeping 'legacy users' in the loop, i.e. older users not being disadvantaged.
This problem with DLC - SP1 appears to go against that trend. Upgrade, or fall off the Trainz wagon.

The difference here being that you are comparing buying a new computer (unreasonable to expect our users to do this particularly frequently, and certainly not for the sake of Trainz alone) to a free software upgrade (or, if using TS2010, a paid upgrade but one that is substantially cheaper than a new computer.)

kind regards,

chris
 
You can add me to the "not getting SP1 anytime soon" side of the fence. What with all the fuss about people not being able to download DLC that they paid for, reeks of stinking DRM (which doesn't work properly) to me.
 
As has been said quite a few times now, we have no plans to offer any future DLC packs via the old DLC system. There are many issues with the old DLC system which we have fixed in the new DLC system, and as such we will not be going back to the old system.

We do make it extremely clear in our shop what the minimum requirements are for the new packs, specifically that they required Trainz Simulator 12 SP1 or newer to function/install. If your Trainz/system does not meet the minimum requirements, we will not provide a refund. It is your responsibility to ensure that your Trainz installation or system does meet the minimum requirements before purchase.

Regards


Hi Zec - I noticed you didn't respond to my latest question/comment on the Helpdesk regarding this.

As far as I'm concerned, restricting new DLC content to TS12 SP1 users only is a very unwise move given the problems that SP1 has caused (just see the TS12 SP1 Bugs thread for that one), and the fact that DRM has been forced upon users. I understand that this is to do with simplicity, but the way I see it is that the major bugs at least if not the minor bugs should have been sorted out before releasing new DLC content for TS12 SP1, as well as relaxing any online requirements (including the removal of the DRM) that are specific to TS12 SP1 and it's DRM system.

Take it from me, those are the two main reasons why you are likely to lose custom for this or any future packs, at least while TS12 SP1 is the way it is.

Shane
 
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